Fanfic and flying under the radar

[msagara]

stakebait wrote
Been thinking more about this. What makes it [fanfic] not public is the attempt to fly under the radar of the Powers That Be, right? Or at least not actively draw their attention? Though how much that's done varies quite a bit from creator to creator. I know of at least one mailing list, read and posted to by the author, where fanfic is simply labeled "fanfic" so she can avoid reading it, but there's no attempt to pretend that it doesn't exist.

I've been thinking more about it as well. This is less an answer to your question than it started out being, but it is a more methodical examination of my own reaction.


What makes it less public is twofold, for me. Radar is part of it, but not by any means the whole. Let me try to express it. Let me take a whole new post to do it, because I've outrun my word limit. Again.

PART ONE

Fanfic is not a critique, nor is it a review of what exists; fanfic writers are certainly capable of doing book critiques/reviews or movie/tv critiques/reviews, but no one calls those fanfic. Both critique and review consider the text at hand (or the show at hand), assessing what's there, and giving their (hopefully but not always) informed opinion on it. There is a dialogue of sorts between some of these reviewers and the creative person(s) at the other end; there is a dialogue of sorts between some of these reviewers and the fans of the work in question. But if the review has some heat or love at its heart, it's still about the work as a whole. I don't consider this a dialogue in the standard sense; I'm now using dialogue in the sense that you used it originally, so if I stumble in that, bear with me.

In some instances, I think there are parodies or even satires -- but I don't consider those to be fanfic, and this could be because my definition is way the heck too narrow, i.e. I'm ignorant. Parody usually reflects the original work as a whole, and some understanding of the original is necessary in order for the parody to work at all; I consider parody a broad commentary, because that's the point of parody. Well, and also to make fun of the audience reaction. Digression.

Fanfic, rather than being a (theoretically) objective form of that dialogue or response, is much more of an emotional dialogue; it exists first between the reader and what they draw out of the primary work, and second, in the text they create. It explores other possibilities and permutations (if I understand what you've said correctly) that the original work did not -- or hasn't yet. Or never will.

But much of fanfic is essentially fiction, with serial numbers, and its aim is the aim, in many ways, of the original work, because if it didn't have some of that same feel or tone it wouldn't be fanfic. Because of the serial numbers, there is a need to fly under the radar. I would argue that it's that need that allows fanfic to thrive, although it does keep it out of the public eye to a greater or lesser extent. If you don't know anything about it, it's invisible; once you do, it's everywhere. Okay, I really have to stop with the digressions.

Having said that, let's go back to the need to fly under the radar. This is partly necessitated by legal convention, and as the copyright holder, I cannot outright decry it, for a variety of reasons, one being, I have some attachment to my copyright.

What happens under the radar is of less concern to me than what happens above the radar. There are things I would not want my characters to say or do. Obviously, when I'm writing, I have say in this (although, creative process being what it is, not 100% <wry g>). If someone is writing fanfic based on my characters or in my universe, what they want the characters to do is part of their emotional response. And -- beneath the radar -- this is a valid exploration; it's a little like daydreaming in public, which, in many ways, is where the heart of many stories start. The work comes after.

But if you remove the protective layer, which we'll call the radar level, I would feel a lot more ambivalent, because there are ways in which I would not want my characters to be represented to my readers, many of whom still don't own computers (I know, I always find this a bit shocking; it's stranger, to me, than not owning a telephone or a television but I digress, as always). In the public sense -- in the way my vision is present as my vision to the universe, or the small slice that reads my books <wry g>, and speaking with no delusions of grandeur (although I can't speak for other types of delusions), I can clearly state that I want my vision of my creation to be the canonical vision. I realize that's a lot of genetive use there.

Let me sum it up in a less unwieldy fashion: I do not want other writers defining canon in a universe I create.


PART TWO

But part of the difference in my reaction, part of the sense of "public" or "legitimate" stems, in part, from the medium through which the original property is first presented. Joss Whedon approves of fanfic, but he's doing Television, and I bet he'd be a lot less happy if fanfic writers were to get together and produce and air their own version of Buffy. A lot, as in lawsuits and really ugly things, and I don't think he'd be hands-off at that point.

Many of the people who watch the show will never read the licensed spinoffs, and they'll also never read the fanfic. Both the spinoffs and the fanfic fill a smaller role than the original broadcast did. It's accepted that what happens in the textual presentations or the comic books or the fanfic, etc, licensed or not., are not canonical; they can be ignored or changed or overturned at the whim of the licensor. In a sense, the spirit of generosity that allows the fanfic to exist can only be generous, in my view, because of that -- the other works are not canonical. They don't change anything. They don't touch or mark or move the original, and they don't open or close the avenues the original series can move in. The creator feels free to ignore them entirely.

When you're dealing with fanfic based on written work, you're suddenly dealing with the exact same medium, which is why I think more tension exists.

I don't know any writers who hate filksongs inspired by their works. I don't know any writers who hate art inspired by their work. Or costumes. Many would be perfectly happy to have RPGs or Television shows based on their works (if they were paid <g>).

But none of these media are the primary medium for the creator -- the text, in the case of books, is.

Knowing that canon is decided by me (and knowing that some people won't always be happy with the decisions I make) gives me the same comfort zone that someone producing television shows would have. Reviews, critiques-- these don't really change the way people view the original. Are they public? Yes. But in some sense they relate to the canonical work.

They make no attempt to change the work; they can savage it, they can praise it, they can dissect it for meaning -- but they're not there to rework to it; at most, they can shift the way we view what's already there. In this sense, the work is the point of the discourse. And as all writers know, once something is published, it's public, and people can say whatever the want about it. We're prepared for that. That's the sense of "public" I assume when I see the word.

In the case of fanfic, the work is the stepping stone, the foundation, the thing people stand on while they branch out; the anchor to which they tie their own skills, developing their own voices and abilities. At this point in time, one can sort of assume that readers and writers of fanfic have read or watched the originals, so there's a certainty of informed creation, even if the creation is not canon.

But were the fanfic based on novels to be published as novels in their own right -- without any vetting or interference from the original author -- there's no guarantee that new readers would be so informed, and the canonical understanding of a creation that originated elsewhere -- like, say, me -- could shift radically. A book, after all, is a book, and it sits on the shelf, like other books.

And I'm sorry if it makes me sound hideously selfish -- and I'm aware that it probably does -- but the right to set canon is incredibly important to me.

Comments

[msagara.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you're enjoying the conversation. I'm sure it must be weird to hear about someone doing your job, basically, for free.

Not really; when a writer first starts out writing for publication, there's never a guarantee; there's just bloody-minded determination and the slow climb toward getting better, being Good Enough. But in the end? It can take years, it's a slog -- and if you don't love it, if you don't love the stories & the characters & the vision -- you're crazy.

IMHO.

At some point, it's easier. At some point, you sell more than you don't sell. And at some point you figure out what you're doing. Sort of. Then you do worry about everything associated -- agents, publishers, chains, placement, -- all the things that aren't writing. I love the example of the wine-maker.

Hobbies take a lot of work, but you do them for the joy of doing them, and turning any hobby into a business is changing the nature of the activity.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

There's actually a subgenre of Literature with a capital L that is, essentially, fanfic of old works in the literary canon. Perhaps authors get away with this more easily than fanfic of contemporary works because they are considered a kind of "updating"; the author is taking a feminist or non-colonial or otherwise "modern" view of the text, and running with it. Sometimes in the opposite direction.

Errr. I understand what you're attempting to say here, but I don't agree with some of it. Authors "get away" with this because in an attempt to modernize what has become a part of the literary canon they're responding to it across a generation; this is they type of dialogue that exists when history intervenes; when the modern tropes and the historical tropes can't coexist, but there's still an echo of old power.

The sequel to Gone With The Wind was fanfic, yes. Pure, utter fanfic. And awful. But I found the first one awful as well, in a kind of fascinating but couldn't-bear-to-finish-the-prose way. And someone mentioned the Brian Herbert & Kevin Anderson DUNE books, which I would class as follow-on in the fanfic tradition.

But I really don't consider something like Mists of Avalon (which I didn't love) to be in any way like fanfic.

[celledhor.livejournal.com]

I think, though, there are often layers to a world; the things that are in the "now" of the universe, and seem immutable, and the things that are in the history of said universe, when things were very different.

That, I don't have problem with. It comes more along the lines of 1)Mages have limits and can severly hurt themselves by trying to go too far. 2) Main character with no training can do things that no one has done in umpteen thousand years and never suffers repercussions for pushing themselves too far. (No I'm not thinking of Robert Jordan, why do you ask?)
3)A character dies. Quick, I need a way to alter time so that I can bring them back. (Again with Jordan)
As an aside, Evayne does not fall in to category three, in my opinion, since she follows her own timeline. That's an interweave with its own rules.

The one complaints I get from people who have stopped reading are: 1. Nothing happens or 2. Too many @#$@%$! characters.

You have never had "nothing happen". To compare to Jordan (yet again), he has 1000 pages at a time where nothing is resolved and you get maybe 150 pages per group of people. Comparison: you had more happen in Sea of Sorrows with Valedan than Jordan did in Crown of Swords & Path of Daggers combined. (all characters/story arcs included) 300 pages versus 2000. Gee, who should have more happen plot wise?

So... I tend to listen to the inner muse

Is there any other way to do it? The reason I don't write much is I never like what I have done. It seems so fake. (Ask Zhaneel69 how nice I am with editing. I'm worse on myself.) When I read, I see what is happening like a play or movie. I just can't write fast enough to keep up and I lose five ideas for where it was going for every one that I manage to get out. Not very comforting, especially when I go back and think, "That wasn't what was in my head!" GRRR. That, and to me, everything that comes out feels like it is borrowing from the authors I really like (Tolkein, Friedman, Williams, West) which just leaves me feeling like a hack. Of course all the essays I wrote in school felt absurdly obvious too and one professor told me I didn't look at the world like anyone else so, what do I know about my own perspective? I'm kind of locked into it. Of course it looks obvious, I know the process that creates what is there. Oh well.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

So... I tend to listen to the inner muse

Is there any other way to do it? The reason I don't write much is I never like what I have done. It seems so fake. (Ask Zhaneel69 how nice I am with editing. I'm worse on myself.) When I read, I see what is happening like a play or movie. I just can't write fast enough to keep up and I lose five ideas for where it was going for every one that I manage to get out.

When I'm at the end of a novel/series of novels (because SUN SWORD was really the end of a very long novel), I have to type at my 80 wpm speed to keep up with everything; it's why I don't write longhand. It's too slow if I hit my stride. So I have a great deal of sympathy for your frustrations.

Not very comforting, especially when I go back and think, "That wasn't what was in my head!" GRRR. That, and to me, everything that comes out feels like it is borrowing from the authors I really like (Tolkein, Friedman, Williams, West) which just leaves me feeling like a hack.

I feel that I borrow from other traditions in a very emotional sense; the things that moved me in other works are things that are imprinted on my writer psyche, and I expect some of my work reflects that, and possibly echoes the emotionality (I know that's not a real word) of all of the authors who inspired me before.

Of course all the essays I wrote in school felt absurdly obvious too and one professor told me I didn't look at the world like anyone else so, what do I know about my own perspective? I'm kind of locked into it. Of course it looks obvious, I know the process that creates what is there. Oh well.

I always feel that I'm absurdly obvious and overstate things -- it's a huge fear of mine. But I've been told that I worry enough that I go in the other direction, and understate too much.

I think, if you write with a certain passion and a certain emotional clarity, obvious ceases to be an issue -- because what's obvious to you (or me) won't be obvious to other people; they're approaching the story from the beginning, and they're not you, they're not in your head -- they don't know where you're going, or sometimes why.

At least that's been my experience <g>. And as for the inspirations you've listed -- wow :D. I'm in damn good company :D.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

one of the writers comes up with a relatively detailed outline; the other writer writes the actual novel.

Bleah. Really? Props to anyone who's done this, but I think my writing a novel off someone else's outline would be a recipe for disaster, because it wouldn't be my story in any way, so it wouldn't be the kind I tell well.

That's pretty much my take on it, too. Alternating chapters (as you mentioned and I cut because of LJ and it's length snit) would work better for me -- but there'd still be the question of editing for tone & voice. I think the only thing that should probably be done at the outset is deciding what the court of last resort is in case of dispute.

Well, that and the real reason to do it is for the money because the sales don't actually help you if you're the lesser name.

Sorry, I was using unclear pronouns. Not easier to write, necessarily; easier to deal with a communal sense of ownership when it's a given canon than when it's yours alone initially.

This is, I think, at the heart of many writers' discomfort with fanfic set in their worlds; the process of the original creation of canon isn't communal; it's intuitive and intellectual, and it changes as it grows -- but it grows internally, rather than externally. For media -- as andpuff pointed out, so much of the process of the original creation is communal it's hard to point at a single owner that isn't corporate. Actors will change things; writers will change things; studio execs will change things -- the finished product can bear little resemblance to the original script. Everyone has a hand in it.

I can't change or break things as the story also demands.

Come and play on the darkfanfic side of the force! They don't pay you, but you can change or break as much as you like. :)

LOL! Deadline hell being what it is, I don't have time to develop another hobbyobsession. Yet <g>.

With the Luna novel, there was a lot more conscious effort to achieve a certain tone and pace, and I have no idea if that will fly.

Is your Luna novel out yet?

No. It's scheduled for August of 2005, which I'm told is a firm date. The title is Cast in Shadow, and it doesn't look like the title itself is going to change. I have no cover art yet, but August is less than a year away, so I'm happy.

One good reason not to: it turns a hobby into a business.

*nodsnodsnods* Exactly. And of course, some people are already doing both -- though many of them seem to have guilt about the fanfic.

Two things there: time and the responsibility to earn money. Any writing takes time, and if you've set yourself two novel deadlines a year and one at least of those is very slow going, you do feel guilty spending words on fiction that someone else hasn't already paid you for. I think it's the sense of responsibility to home, family, and bank account that causes some of that root guilt.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

It isn't the pseud that bugs me -- I may use one for original stuff myself. It's the anxiety about what happens if my (extremely thin, I suck at anonymity) wall is breached.

I suck, suck, suck at anonymity too. Which is to say, I'm sure people would figure it out if I even tried. And a big Doh! Of course that's an issue -- if I weren't stupid with antihistamines (fully body hives that are really really itchy), I would have probably understood this on the first pass. I'm thinking like a original fic writer. (Is there a fanfic word for that? Or is that word just 'pro'?)

so I'm making base assumptions that could be entirely wrong, wrong, wrong.

No, you're right. Humorous fanfic does exist, but it's a small subgenre, & the amount which is poking fun (not just trying to be funny) is smaller.

I can't imagine trying to write funny Buffy, although the dialogue always has those overtones; you can't have that kind of wit without some humour, even if it's gallows humour. I'm sure mine had that.

Ah! Got it. Literary dialogue! The light dawns. I have, in the words of Pratchett, a mental sunrise. Where each particular fandom is a microcosm of the larger literary tradition.

Yes, that's exactly what I was groping for. Though you said it much better.

Actually, I finally clued in in one of oyceter's posts and the response to that (mine).

I'm not going to claim that Joss is Shakespeare, but in my daily life I speak Buffy -- not only the addictive neologisms, but in metaphors drawn from those characters, like my personal myths, & my friends do too. There may not be that resonance to the man on the street, but to our own audience, there is. Much like Nightfall to an SF fan.

I speak Buffy in daily life as well. Although lately that's been more Firefly, because I really loved that show. Note how I'm not saying Fox Sucks. Much.

Good point. I guess I'm less concerned with the collectible cultural psyche than the individual. For me those works get power from how I felt reading the original and how I've changed, both because of it and since, more than how we as a culture have.

I'm wondering if part of the reason I don't have this resonance is because I was thirty when I first came to Buffy, and it's harder to develop that sense of the mythic at that age; it's easy to develop compulsion and attachment, but for me I can see so much that isn't Buffy in Buffy, so many other sources from other experiences in both reading and popular culture. The latter of which could be considered one of my huge blind points

She is indeed. But do we only want to write about other people's myths? I'm also interested in Jewish stories by Jews, Christian stories by Christians, & wireless networking stories by Cory Doctorow . :) I want to see what myths mean to the people who believe them -- & I want to write what my own mean to me in fiction, because that's how I find out.

Oh, I don't think we have to write only other people's myths -- for me, Buffy isn't myth. It's mythic, because of the inverted hero structure, but it's not myth in the sense that I love the show, but don't believe it. At some point, those myths were beliefs, were held as true, and in some cases still are. If that makes sense. Writing about things that aren't mythic isn't a problem either; writing about things that are compelling, I assume, is the driving force behind much of fanfic.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

I hope you do address this at another time in your LJ. Because, of course, it's a process question, and I find process fascinating.

I will -- I'm thinking of little else these days. It's just such a new revelation for me that I don't really know how to address it. Though having a specific person sincerely request that I finish a specific original piece because they want to read it seems to work as a temporary kludge, at least for short stuff.

Pretend I'm a fan who is asking you to write a piece about your thoughts on the writing process in general, then <g>. You will have at least an audience of one, and I'd be happy to read it. Would, in fact, look forward to it.

I find writing to an existing audience vastly more constraining and more stressful.

Wow, we couldn't be more different, could we? That's another thing that makes sense now that you say it but I wouldn't have thought of on my own. I'm learning a lot from this conversation.

It's the other side of the coin. I think a lot of readers approach an original work without specific expectations, so if I write the story well, there's less of a chance that I fail to address a specific need.

The audience that exists for, say, Buffy or Valdemar, has expectations of a work -- and with some reason -- that places the onus on me, as the writer, to get it right. To get the tone right for the audience, as opposed to for the story; I don't have the latitude to shift tone hugely, to change the way characters talk or think, to let them grow organically.

The first and last wouldn't be true for fanfic, BTW -- tone changes are part of what people look for in fanfic because they aren't getting them from canon, and letting them grow organically is the whole point. But I understand that it's not possible in the official stuff. The "can't change the way characters talk or think" is still the same, at least in theory.

Good to know, and more to think about vis a vis what drives people to write fanfic.

I have no idea who my audience is when I write my West novels. I truly don't.

And you find that freeing, yes? I would like to get to that place. Right now I find it paralysing -- like being slapped in the face with my own presumption. This is also where writing process crosses over into therapy process, to my frustration and embarassment.

I find it freeing, yes. Because I can assume that those who like the books will like my particular take on a number of things; I'm not disappointing a preset set of expectations. And it's mine, and can be changed at will -- as I said, I set the canon, and then do my best to make it believable and consistent, which is sort of a pain <wry g>.

I have a freedom in that that probably is egotistical; it's me I have to satisfy first.

I don't think it's egotistical, I think it's healthy. Unfortunately I'm unhealthy enough that when it comes to me it feels egotistical. *wry grin* I still have to satisfy myself first as to whether it's good enough, but in order to write it at all I need to know that someone else wants to read it.
Ah. That makes more sense. I wrote the first books with no certain sense that anyone would want to read them -- but as I was trying to write something I thought I would want to read, I assumed that people out there who were like me existed, and that kept me going. More people watch Buffy, though <wry g>.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

LOL! Deadline hell being what it is, I don't have time to develop another hobbyobsession. Yet .

*grin*

And *nods* To the rest. Makes sense.

Wow, have we actually ended a thread? :)

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

Pretend I'm a fan who is asking you to write a piece about your thoughts on the writing process in general, then . You will have at least an audience of one, and I'd be happy to read it. Would, in fact, look forward to it.

*grin* Okay. In fact, it's already up -- the most recent entry in my journal. It's just thoughts about this part of the writing process, though, because my thoughts on process in general are long and disjointed and I have no confidence in them.

At this stage I am eagerly gobbling up the thoughts on process of people whose processes have, you know, worked.

It's the other side of the coin. I think a lot of readers approach an original work without specific expectations, so if I write the story well, there's less of a chance that I fail to address a specific need.

*nodsnods* That makes sense, intellectually at least.

I find it freeing, yes. Because I can assume that those who like the books will like my particular take on a number of things; I'm not disappointing a preset set of expectations.

*more nodding* I'll be getting a headache at this rate. *grin*

Ah. That makes more sense. I wrote the first books with no certain sense that anyone would want to read them -- but as I was trying to write something I thought I would want to read, I assumed that people out there who were like me existed, and that kept me going.

Huh. Interesting. I don't know what part of that logic chain I'm failing -- while I don't always write want I want to read, I would in fact want to read the current project. Maybe there are people like me part?

More people watch Buffy, though .

Hey, if your books were free and beamed into their living rooms, more people would read them too. Never underestimate the power of laziness.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

I suck, suck, suck at anonymity too. Which is to say, I'm sure people would figure it out if I even tried.

I think about a quarter of my FL already knows who I am. Plus I chaired Buffycon under my real name, and posted about it in my LJ, and the email account I use for LJ has my real name on the reply field. Basically I try to make sure they're not Googleable together to the casual eye, but beyond that it'd take about 15 minutes to connect the dots.

(fully body hives that are really really itchy)

Ugh, I'm sorry. I've had exactly one hive in my life, and that was quite bad enough.

I'm thinking like a original fic writer. (Is there a fanfic word for that? Or is that word just 'pro'?)

Pro, if they've sold. Otherwise "original fic writer" is fine. There are people, many of whom come out of the fanfic community, writing and posting original fic to the web for free, so we do need the distinction. "Real" writer has been used on occasion, but I wouldn't recommend it.

I can't imagine trying to write funny Buffy,

Nor I, but people do. I have an Iron Author request I've left dangling for months because they want Willow/Xander as a romantic comedy and I can't get past my *blink* reaction. Also I don't think I know how to write romantic commedy. It keeps degenerating into old French farce in my head.

Actually, I finally clued in in one of oyceter's posts and the response to that (mine).

Cool!

Which post? (If it's public, of course.)

I speak Buffy in daily life as well. Although lately that's been more Firefly, because I really loved that show. Note how I'm not saying Fox Sucks. Much.

Hee! I've only see a few eps of Firefly. I didn't really have time to get attached. But I did buy the DVDs, and I've got to watch them before Serenity comes out, so there may be a foredoomed and tragic love in my future.

I'm wondering if part of the reason I don't have this resonance is because I was thirty when I first came to Buffy,

Quite possibly? I was (does math) 22? Can that be right? Good lord. Anyway, when I tipped over from a casual viewer to a regular viewer to an obsessed fan I was about 26 -- it was Fool For Love that did it. And not long after I had a terrible breakup and threw myself into the Buffyverse as place to put all the energy I used to use on keeping us together, and an alternative to not feeling anything. I'm over the breakup at last, but the Buffy bonding remains.

I can see so much that isn't Buffy in Buffy, so many other sources from other experiences in both reading and popular culture. The latter of which could be considered one of my huge blind points

*nods* I can see that stuff, at least some of it, but for me that's sort of like tracing the sources of Shakespeare's plots -- I know they're not original to him, but it's he that really pulled them together in a form that punched me in the gut, so his is the mythic version for me, and the others are only ancestors, of academic interest.

It's mythic, because of the inverted hero structure, but it's not myth in the sense that I love the show, but don't believe it. At some point, those myths were beliefs, were held as true, and in some cases still are. If that makes sense.

It does make sense. And it doesn't, I hope, need saying that I don't believe there was a real Buffy and she lived in a real town that doesn't exist any more. But for someone like me, who hasn't believed in anything in that sense since Santa Claus, believing in Buffy and Paul Muad Dib and Ender Wiggins is probably as close as I'm ever going to get. I don't have real. I'll settle for true.

writing about things that are compelling, I assume, is the driving force behind much of fanfic.

Absolutely.

[bwappo.livejournal.com]

I understand you not wanting others to set canon in your universe. I feel that a writer doesn't really have control over that, and more importantly, doesn't need control over that to be the sole provider of canon. For example, I love the original Dragonlance trilogy written by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman. Many, many authors wrote many, many stories in the same universe, with the same publisher, using some of the same characters. Basically, its professional fanfic. Some of it I really enjoyed, and some I didn't (just as there were some Weis/Hickman Dragonlance works that I didn't like). That doesn't change my opinion about the first Weis/Hickman Dragonlance trilogy. In film, many actors played James Bond or Batman; another good or bad actor in the universe didn't dilute the performace of the previous actors.

As an analogy, companies worry about and protect their brands from dilution by imitators. Authors are their own brands. Their books are products under that brand. Someone can make similar products with similar parts or ingredients, but they're not originals. Michelle West (tm) brand characters will never have the same content or context as Elvis Impersonator (tm) brand versions of the same characters and universe. Fanfic can be anything from treasured to reviled to ignored. If it were possible for people to publish works in your universe, even against your wishes, their works would stand or fall on their own merit. Works that stand would enhance your universe. Works that fall would, by comparison, push your work that much higher. But I don't think they would affect your brand.

Assuming it were even possible for someone to duplicate your style to the point where a given reader wouldn't be able to tell whether or not you wrote the derivative work, authorship (your "brand") implies a safety and comfort in a universe. Anything you write, I know you intended. If someone else writes in your universe, I have no guarantee that you include their treatment of your universe as part of your universe. Regardless of whether or not I think it's cool that one of your characters gets abducted by the Tribe of Snuffleupagus in someone's fanfic, only you can give me the opportunity to get to know and grow with your characters and your universe in the way you choose. Other authors can give me their vision within their version of your universe, but that's within their "brand". That's why I don't think authors really need control over their universes to set canon. By default, I think readers assume each author owns and defines their own canon, regardless of whoever else may write within an author's universe.

Now, I probably have an unusual perspective; I study interactive games. One of the great challenges that story-based games face is that, by default, the author has little control of the main character (the player). Authors (i.e. game designers) create the universe in such a way as to make it inviting for players to "write their own fanfic", as it were. To be sure, most video games aren't story-based. But it's interesting that all video games face the same "active audience" issues that books, movies, and other media have. In that sense, fanfic is merely a way of making a story a little more interactive.

This is all in my head, and maybe I've separated myself too far from Real Life. Do you think readers tend to assume that different authors share the canon of a universe if the authors write in the same universe? Or for a character? If you read a series of books done by multiple authors, and you read a book you don't like, would you tend to avoid the series, the author, ...both?

This thread really has really made me think hard about author and reader roles. ...Thanks everyone!

[vsherbie.livejournal.com]

J(celledhor yes he finally got sucked in to LJ) and I own quite a few of thier anthologies. especially the Martin Greenberg ones if you're interested in borrowing some.

Hummm...

[alfreda89.livejournal.com]

Let me sum it up in a less unwieldy fashion: I do not want other writers defining canon in a universe I create.

I'm too tired to jump into this lovely conversation, but this does sum up my feelings on this, I think--it's what as a writer most concerns me. Also--I've been told I have a distinct "voice", part of the reason I've never sold any tie-in novels. I'd be afraid someone would mess up the voices of my characters in my head.

I loved "The Very Secret Diaries", but have not read her Harry Potter stuff--slash Harry/Draco doesn't interest me. Although I wouldn't be surprised if Draco comes around to fighting on Harry's side before it's through...

I've written one fanfic--a short stream of consciousness novel slotted into a TV series that I needed to get out of my system--and never showed to anyone. I condensed and made a synopsis to try and sell it, but the publisher was hiring only their own stable of writers, so not sure it was ever considered--only saw Del Rey people doing the writing.

Someone mentioned being annoyed when the writer seems to change the universe out from under fans? (I went back to the root post, so can't see it right now.) This brings to mind three things--one, reading a novel, after over 100 pages of what seemed to be a pure fantasy novel, no hints of SF anywhere, a character suddenly finds a spaceship. This annoyed me so much I never finished the novel--and it was from an otherwise pretty good writer.

On the other hand, Tepper slipped the SF element into her True Game books so slowly it worked for me.

And then a third thing--I haven't read the latest "Anita Blake", but I understand that many fans are furious about the personality mending among the three protagonists of the book. Yet from what has been described to me, and the novelette I saw from the book, this makes sense in the evolution of magic/the world/Anita's expanding powers. I'm not saying I would have done it that way, myself, but I can see why Laurell thought it might go that way, and chose that direction.

She's the author. Her world, her book, her call. People can choose to buy it or not (book or idea) and can debate all they want among each other. They can send her fan letters and scream that they're unhappy. But constantly harping on this ad nauseum is foolish--the book can't be "unwritten" except by that "Ooops, it was a dream" dodge most of us hate, except in parody of the most famous example on TV.

Fanfic is a special niche unlike anything else. I know writers who have written it and have a special affection for it--have even moved into writing tie-in novels of favorite series! But I suspect most of us feel the same way, bottom line--this is our advice for how to spend your time, if you want to become a writer.

Write your own stories, with your own world and own characters. Share something of *you* with us, as we have given to you.

If you only wish to please yourself in an amusing hobby, then quietly write on and share fanfic with friends.

Songs or artwork about my characters? I don't think I'd find it threatening...I'd see it more as being creatively inspired, as opposed to TV/movies, where they'd better buy the rights first.

And now, sleep....

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

coming in way, way, way late from naominovik (http://www.livejournal.com/users/naominovik/2269.html), and maybe this will be explained later on (Haven't read all 88 comments yet).

But why isn't Mists of Avalon fanfic to your mind? And where would something like Wicked fall? How about West Side Story as compared to Romeo and Juliet? As a fanfic reader, they are all three clearly fanfiction to me. The sort of reimagining, turn canon on its head stuff that MoA and Wicked did are really treasured in parts of the fanfiction community. We like a story that makes us think this thing we thought we knew and loved all the way through again.