Fanfic and flying under the radar

[msagara]

stakebait wrote
Been thinking more about this. What makes it [fanfic] not public is the attempt to fly under the radar of the Powers That Be, right? Or at least not actively draw their attention? Though how much that's done varies quite a bit from creator to creator. I know of at least one mailing list, read and posted to by the author, where fanfic is simply labeled "fanfic" so she can avoid reading it, but there's no attempt to pretend that it doesn't exist.

I've been thinking more about it as well. This is less an answer to your question than it started out being, but it is a more methodical examination of my own reaction.


What makes it less public is twofold, for me. Radar is part of it, but not by any means the whole. Let me try to express it. Let me take a whole new post to do it, because I've outrun my word limit. Again.

PART ONE

Fanfic is not a critique, nor is it a review of what exists; fanfic writers are certainly capable of doing book critiques/reviews or movie/tv critiques/reviews, but no one calls those fanfic. Both critique and review consider the text at hand (or the show at hand), assessing what's there, and giving their (hopefully but not always) informed opinion on it. There is a dialogue of sorts between some of these reviewers and the creative person(s) at the other end; there is a dialogue of sorts between some of these reviewers and the fans of the work in question. But if the review has some heat or love at its heart, it's still about the work as a whole. I don't consider this a dialogue in the standard sense; I'm now using dialogue in the sense that you used it originally, so if I stumble in that, bear with me.

In some instances, I think there are parodies or even satires -- but I don't consider those to be fanfic, and this could be because my definition is way the heck too narrow, i.e. I'm ignorant. Parody usually reflects the original work as a whole, and some understanding of the original is necessary in order for the parody to work at all; I consider parody a broad commentary, because that's the point of parody. Well, and also to make fun of the audience reaction. Digression.

Fanfic, rather than being a (theoretically) objective form of that dialogue or response, is much more of an emotional dialogue; it exists first between the reader and what they draw out of the primary work, and second, in the text they create. It explores other possibilities and permutations (if I understand what you've said correctly) that the original work did not -- or hasn't yet. Or never will.

But much of fanfic is essentially fiction, with serial numbers, and its aim is the aim, in many ways, of the original work, because if it didn't have some of that same feel or tone it wouldn't be fanfic. Because of the serial numbers, there is a need to fly under the radar. I would argue that it's that need that allows fanfic to thrive, although it does keep it out of the public eye to a greater or lesser extent. If you don't know anything about it, it's invisible; once you do, it's everywhere. Okay, I really have to stop with the digressions.

Having said that, let's go back to the need to fly under the radar. This is partly necessitated by legal convention, and as the copyright holder, I cannot outright decry it, for a variety of reasons, one being, I have some attachment to my copyright.

What happens under the radar is of less concern to me than what happens above the radar. There are things I would not want my characters to say or do. Obviously, when I'm writing, I have say in this (although, creative process being what it is, not 100% <wry g>). If someone is writing fanfic based on my characters or in my universe, what they want the characters to do is part of their emotional response. And -- beneath the radar -- this is a valid exploration; it's a little like daydreaming in public, which, in many ways, is where the heart of many stories start. The work comes after.

But if you remove the protective layer, which we'll call the radar level, I would feel a lot more ambivalent, because there are ways in which I would not want my characters to be represented to my readers, many of whom still don't own computers (I know, I always find this a bit shocking; it's stranger, to me, than not owning a telephone or a television but I digress, as always). In the public sense -- in the way my vision is present as my vision to the universe, or the small slice that reads my books <wry g>, and speaking with no delusions of grandeur (although I can't speak for other types of delusions), I can clearly state that I want my vision of my creation to be the canonical vision. I realize that's a lot of genetive use there.

Let me sum it up in a less unwieldy fashion: I do not want other writers defining canon in a universe I create.


PART TWO

But part of the difference in my reaction, part of the sense of "public" or "legitimate" stems, in part, from the medium through which the original property is first presented. Joss Whedon approves of fanfic, but he's doing Television, and I bet he'd be a lot less happy if fanfic writers were to get together and produce and air their own version of Buffy. A lot, as in lawsuits and really ugly things, and I don't think he'd be hands-off at that point.

Many of the people who watch the show will never read the licensed spinoffs, and they'll also never read the fanfic. Both the spinoffs and the fanfic fill a smaller role than the original broadcast did. It's accepted that what happens in the textual presentations or the comic books or the fanfic, etc, licensed or not., are not canonical; they can be ignored or changed or overturned at the whim of the licensor. In a sense, the spirit of generosity that allows the fanfic to exist can only be generous, in my view, because of that -- the other works are not canonical. They don't change anything. They don't touch or mark or move the original, and they don't open or close the avenues the original series can move in. The creator feels free to ignore them entirely.

When you're dealing with fanfic based on written work, you're suddenly dealing with the exact same medium, which is why I think more tension exists.

I don't know any writers who hate filksongs inspired by their works. I don't know any writers who hate art inspired by their work. Or costumes. Many would be perfectly happy to have RPGs or Television shows based on their works (if they were paid <g>).

But none of these media are the primary medium for the creator -- the text, in the case of books, is.

Knowing that canon is decided by me (and knowing that some people won't always be happy with the decisions I make) gives me the same comfort zone that someone producing television shows would have. Reviews, critiques-- these don't really change the way people view the original. Are they public? Yes. But in some sense they relate to the canonical work.

They make no attempt to change the work; they can savage it, they can praise it, they can dissect it for meaning -- but they're not there to rework to it; at most, they can shift the way we view what's already there. In this sense, the work is the point of the discourse. And as all writers know, once something is published, it's public, and people can say whatever the want about it. We're prepared for that. That's the sense of "public" I assume when I see the word.

In the case of fanfic, the work is the stepping stone, the foundation, the thing people stand on while they branch out; the anchor to which they tie their own skills, developing their own voices and abilities. At this point in time, one can sort of assume that readers and writers of fanfic have read or watched the originals, so there's a certainty of informed creation, even if the creation is not canon.

But were the fanfic based on novels to be published as novels in their own right -- without any vetting or interference from the original author -- there's no guarantee that new readers would be so informed, and the canonical understanding of a creation that originated elsewhere -- like, say, me -- could shift radically. A book, after all, is a book, and it sits on the shelf, like other books.

And I'm sorry if it makes me sound hideously selfish -- and I'm aware that it probably does -- but the right to set canon is incredibly important to me.

Comments

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

What about stuff like shared worlds? Borderlands? (I have no idea what their process is like). Or collaborative writing teams? Though two people is a more manageable group than infinity.

I do think its easier when the canon is a given and what you're arguing is the interpretation than when you're creating from scratch. Though I think I could write a shared world that was collaborative from the get go -- heck, pro TV writers do it all the time, they rarely if ever get to go it alone -- but I'd have a hard time starting out with it as all mine and then accepting other people's takes as equally valid.

And yes, I think you're right. There are plenty of people who write fanfic who wouldn't write original fic. And while there are many different reasons for that, one of them for some folks may well be that they work better in a quilting bee than an isolated sewing room.

And there are also some folks who write fanfic with a deal less interaction -- mine is a very LJ based fanfic world, but they aren't all, and I started out writing with one friend and found the community later -- and some folks who start out here and then branch out into uncharted territory.

And it's not so communal as all *that* -- we each get final say about what our takes on the characters do, unless it's an RPG in written format. And then squabble like squabbling things about why our takes are right and other people's takes are wrong. *grin*

It's more like -- imagine the way that every time travel story plays off every other time travel story, either by taking bits or avoiding bits or breaking for new ground. And then imagine that all the writers knew each other personally and were writing at the Con That Never Ends.

They all do go off to their own rooms to pound laptop alone, but stuff that's said in the panels and in the bar finds its way into what they're writing because they're thinking about it. And then when the stories are published, that becomes new material for the panels and the bar.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

What about stuff like shared worlds? Borderlands? (I have no idea what their process is like). Or collaborative writing teams? Though two people is a more manageable group than infinity.

My understanding -- and sleigh would have a much, much better grip on this, having written in the Wild Cards shared world universe -- is that the bible, much like a television bible, is hashed out first. Hashing out fact, pointing out inconsistency and improbability is far more comfortable for something that's a set of facts than it is if one's arguing about fiction. After this has been hashed out, it differs. I think the Borderlands people were given free play; I think the Liavek people referred to each other more.

Collaborative writing teams vary hugely. In most of the collaborations that I can think of, one of the writers comes up with a relatively detailed outline; the other writer writes the actual novel. This is how most of the Baen collaborations are done, and it's usually the bigger name that does the outlining. There is some back and forth; often the person who outlined also has final edit.

But teams of long standing -- like Sharon Lee and Steve Miller -- must work in a different way, and I have no idea what that is. I know that when Steve Stirling and Shirley Meier were collaborating, they practically stood over each other's shoulder, taking turns at the keyboard and going back and forth (or at least this is what was said).

I do think its easier when the canon is a given and what you're arguing is the interpretation than when you're creating from scratch. Though I think I could write a shared world that was collaborative from the get go -- heck, pro TV writers do it all the time, they rarely if ever get to go it alone -- but I'd have a hard time starting out with it as all mine and then accepting other people's takes as equally valid.

The latter point is probably the reaction that sets many writers' teeth on edge. The sense of ownership is profound, and I do include myself in that number to a point. But… I don't find it easier when working in a given canon. I find it harder. I have to find a way to wedge the story into the form; I can't go off on a tangent in the wide-open way I can if it's my world, and I can't change or break things as the story also demands. I find it much, much harder to play in another person's sandbox, and I also find it harder because I have a much better idea of what the readership expects of that given franchise or universe.

I'm one of those writers who attempts to write what I would like to read, but in the end, I don't really think about the audience beyond that when I'm doing the actual writing. With the Luna novel, there was a lot more conscious effort to achieve a certain tone and pace, and I have no idea if that will fly. I was trying to channel Tanya Huff. I think I managed to get a line or two out of the effort <wry g>.

And yes, I think you're right. There are plenty of people who write fanfic who wouldn't write original fic. And while there are many different reasons for that, one of them for some folks may well be that they work better in a quilting bee than an isolated sewing room.

One good reason not to: it turns a hobby into a business. It changes the nature of the writing process. I don't think that fanfic writers are wasting their time; my perception now is that they're doing something out of love, as all hobbies are done. Some people who are writing fanfic do want to get published, and they can learn a lot just doing the writing -- but I don't think one has to lead to the other.

imagine the way that every time travel story plays off every other time travel story, either by taking bits or avoiding bits or breaking for new ground. And then imagine that all the writers knew each other personally and were writing at the Con That Never Ends.

Good analogy. I think that some of us would go nuts at this Con, but many of us go a little crazy at conventions anyway. I love to talk about the process of writing, but not so much the actual work itself -- I live in mortal terror of being derailed or losing the sense of emotional immediacy that drives to write in the first place.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

Gotcha. Interesting. I can see how hashing out the Bible would be easier, but OTOH I'd think you'd want to leave some room for stuff to come up in the course of writing and then be added to the world.

one of the writers comes up with a relatively detailed outline; the other writer writes the actual novel.

Bleah. Really? Props to anyone who's done this, but I think my writing a novel off someone else's outline would be a recipe for disaster, because it wouldn't be my story in any way, so it wouldn't be the kind I tell well.

I know Emma Lathen, the mystery writing team, alternates chapters, which also boggles my mind, but differently.

Some of my fanfic collaborating friends do it Method style -- each take a character, improvise the interactions, and then edit the results. (If not very firmly edited, this way produces reams of in-character interaction that doesn't advance the story at all, but people can be too attached to to cut.)

But teams of long standing -- like Sharon Lee and Steve Miller -- must work in a different way, and I have no idea what that is.

I'd be curious. Wonder if they've ever discussed it at a con.

I know that when Steve Stirling and Shirley Meier were collaborating, they practically stood over each other's shoulder, taking turns at the keyboard and going back and forth (or at least this is what was said).

*nods* That's how I've co-written in fanfic, hashing things out aloud and having one person transcribe until their wrists give out.

I don't find it easier when working in a given canon. I find it harder.

Sorry, I was using unclear pronouns. Not easier to write, necessarily; easier to deal with a communal sense of ownership when it's a given canon than when it's yours alone initially.

I can't change or break things as the story also demands.

Come and play on the darkfanfic side of the force! They don't pay you, but you can change or break as much as you like. :)

I'm one of those writers who attempts to write what I would like to read

Really? I often write things I wouldn't pick up if written by someone else. Lord knows why.

With the Luna novel, there was a lot more conscious effort to achieve a certain tone and pace, and I have no idea if that will fly.

Is your Luna novel out yet?

One good reason not to: it turns a hobby into a business. It changes the nature of the writing process. I don't think that fanfic writers are wasting their time; my perception now is that they're doing something out of love, as all hobbies are done. Some people who are writing fanfic do want to get published, and they can learn a lot just doing the writing -- but I don't think one has to lead to the other.

*nodsnodsnods* Exactly. And of course, some people are already doing both -- though many of them seem to have guilt about the fanfic.

I love to talk about the process of writing, but not so much the actual work itself -- I live in mortal terror of being derailed or losing the sense of emotional immediacy that drives to write in the first place.

I worry sometimes that I'm doing that. But I can't imagine working on something as long as a novel and not talking about it with anyone until it's done.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

one of the writers comes up with a relatively detailed outline; the other writer writes the actual novel.

Bleah. Really? Props to anyone who's done this, but I think my writing a novel off someone else's outline would be a recipe for disaster, because it wouldn't be my story in any way, so it wouldn't be the kind I tell well.

That's pretty much my take on it, too. Alternating chapters (as you mentioned and I cut because of LJ and it's length snit) would work better for me -- but there'd still be the question of editing for tone & voice. I think the only thing that should probably be done at the outset is deciding what the court of last resort is in case of dispute.

Well, that and the real reason to do it is for the money because the sales don't actually help you if you're the lesser name.

Sorry, I was using unclear pronouns. Not easier to write, necessarily; easier to deal with a communal sense of ownership when it's a given canon than when it's yours alone initially.

This is, I think, at the heart of many writers' discomfort with fanfic set in their worlds; the process of the original creation of canon isn't communal; it's intuitive and intellectual, and it changes as it grows -- but it grows internally, rather than externally. For media -- as andpuff pointed out, so much of the process of the original creation is communal it's hard to point at a single owner that isn't corporate. Actors will change things; writers will change things; studio execs will change things -- the finished product can bear little resemblance to the original script. Everyone has a hand in it.

I can't change or break things as the story also demands.

Come and play on the darkfanfic side of the force! They don't pay you, but you can change or break as much as you like. :)

LOL! Deadline hell being what it is, I don't have time to develop another hobbyobsession. Yet <g>.

With the Luna novel, there was a lot more conscious effort to achieve a certain tone and pace, and I have no idea if that will fly.

Is your Luna novel out yet?

No. It's scheduled for August of 2005, which I'm told is a firm date. The title is Cast in Shadow, and it doesn't look like the title itself is going to change. I have no cover art yet, but August is less than a year away, so I'm happy.

One good reason not to: it turns a hobby into a business.

*nodsnodsnods* Exactly. And of course, some people are already doing both -- though many of them seem to have guilt about the fanfic.

Two things there: time and the responsibility to earn money. Any writing takes time, and if you've set yourself two novel deadlines a year and one at least of those is very slow going, you do feel guilty spending words on fiction that someone else hasn't already paid you for. I think it's the sense of responsibility to home, family, and bank account that causes some of that root guilt.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

LOL! Deadline hell being what it is, I don't have time to develop another hobbyobsession. Yet .

*grin*

And *nods* To the rest. Makes sense.

Wow, have we actually ended a thread? :)

[cofax7]

One good reason not to: it turns a hobby into a business. It changes the nature of the writing process. I don't think that fanfic writers are wasting their time; my perception now is that they're doing something out of love, as all hobbies are done. Some people who are writing fanfic do want to get published, and they can learn a lot just doing the writing -- but I don't think one has to lead to the other.

Exactly, and thank you. I've learned a lot through writing fic, but that's not why I do it. I have written some original fiction, using some of what I've learned through writing fic, but again, it's not a conscious process of "first I'll write fic for a while so I know what I'm doing and then I'll become a professional writer."

I write because it's fun, and because I'm pretty good at it. And I've met a lot of smart, funny people through the process.

Also, selling stories? Is work. It's much easier to slap them up on my LJ. *grin*

As Mer says, for many of us (but not all), this is an intensely communal process. I find myself writing things I wouldn't otherwise think to, because I know they'll please friends whom I value.

Hell, I started writing Stargate not because I adore the show (I like it well enough, but it's far from brilliant), but because my friend vonnielake had some TimTams she was willing to ship me and I wanted to give her something in exchange for them. ::shrugs:: And here I am now, five months later, halfway through an epic post-apocalyptic story about the invasion of the planet. Heh.

Anyway. Sorry to barge in on your conversation. ::sits back to watch some more::

[zhaneel69.livejournal.com]

Also, selling stories? Is work.

Grrrrr.... no kidding. *grousegrowl*

But, I'm almost sure here, it will be ALL worth it for that first sale.

Until I get rejected again... then it will be worth it for the next sale.

And so on and so forth.

I, personally, don't get as much satisfaction from my erotica which I just throw up on EroticStories.com [not work safe, duh!] as I do from the fiction that I'm honing for publication. I have yet to be published, but I know I've worked hard so success will be all the more sweet.

Or I just like pain and frustration. Take your pick.

Zhaneel

PS: Where is your SG-1 fic? I read a whole bunch a while ago and enjoyed it but had to stop.

[cofax7]

Well you know I've never sold any fiction, although I'm in print for nonfiction professional writing in a variety of places, mostly government reports. I don't know how I'd respond if I sold anything. Probably by bouncing around the house in glee and calling my family up to squee. *g*

The payment I get from readers in the form of email and comments can be really lovely, though, and I value it highly. It also leads to friendships, which are even more important.

You can find my fic here, and my SG-1 stuff on this page. Hope you like. And if you don't, that's cool too. ::smiles::

[msagara.livejournal.com]

Also, selling stories? Is work. It's much easier to slap them up on my LJ. *grin*

LOL! It's a bit of work <wry g>.

Anyway. Sorry to barge in on your conversation. ::sits back to watch some more::

I can't claim to own it, unless I"m talking to myself <g>. Input is good; this is a relatively new topic for me, and it's interesting to get the feedback.

[cofax7]

LOL! It's a bit of work .

I'm reminded of a friend of mine who makes great wine. And so he started a boutique winery. And... well, he loves to make wine. And talk wine. He doesn't like to deal with distributors, and marketing, and shmoozing with buyers and restauranteurs, and publicity people. He doesn't like the accounting hassles and the taxes and dealing with city, state, and federal bureaucracies.

He just wants to make wine.

That's me. I'm the writer who just wants to do the writing part. I get people reading my stuff and commenting on it, and I've improved over time. I'm pleased with most of my stuff and actually proud of some of it. And it's not the same as professional writing, but you know? I have a job. I don't really need another one.

Not to say that this might not change at some point.

I'm glad you're enjoying the conversation. I'm sure it must be weird to hear about someone doing your job, basically, for free.

I certainly can't imagine meeting anyone who -- well, no, strike that. There are people who would do some of what I do on a volunteer basis. Environmental activists, mostly. But not hobbyists.

Hmm.

[zhaneel69.livejournal.com]

As you've pointed out: You don't do it for free.

You get "paid" in compliments, critique & friendship. And you've chosen not work the selling aspect.

If you did all the writing AND all the subbing that goes with "pro" writing for fun and no money, then I'd say you were insane.

But you don't go that far. You draw the line at fun. I don't considering subbing around fun, but the end goal [being published] is important enough to me to do that work. And I do eventually want to do this for a living.

It isn't strange to me that people "just" write for no money.

Zhaneel

[msagara.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you're enjoying the conversation. I'm sure it must be weird to hear about someone doing your job, basically, for free.

Not really; when a writer first starts out writing for publication, there's never a guarantee; there's just bloody-minded determination and the slow climb toward getting better, being Good Enough. But in the end? It can take years, it's a slog -- and if you don't love it, if you don't love the stories & the characters & the vision -- you're crazy.

IMHO.

At some point, it's easier. At some point, you sell more than you don't sell. And at some point you figure out what you're doing. Sort of. Then you do worry about everything associated -- agents, publishers, chains, placement, -- all the things that aren't writing. I love the example of the wine-maker.

Hobbies take a lot of work, but you do them for the joy of doing them, and turning any hobby into a business is changing the nature of the activity.