Making Light & Todd James Pierce
Jun. 29th, 2004 01:23 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
msagaraI probably shouldn't be writing this, because it's always a good idea to take a breath when one's annoyed. Or several. Or in fact, a night's sleep. But then again, if I were a sensible person, I wouldn't be a writer.
I don't know how many of you have followed, or regularly read, Making Light, the excellent, varied, intelligent and oft pungent blog of Teresa Nielsen Hayden. I was pointed at it by two friends (Chris Szego, for whom I work, and another, as yet unpublished writer, Graydon Saunders, who also lives in Toronto) many months ago, and have lurked more or less frequentIy since then, but I do my best, having learned over time that this is wise, to lurk and keep my opinions in general to myself. This is less hard -- for those of you who know me -- than it might initially appear, because there are some pretty darned smart people who regular post there, and they usually say anything I might say, but with more cutting wit.
This self-imposed silence came to an end (try to look surprised, Stewart) when the Writer's Collective became the topic for discussion -- or rather, when the woman who started it showed up and laid out her reasons for starting it, and her plans for the books she handles. (I was also doing galleys at the time, which makes me a bit squirelly). Although I'm embarrassed by the number of typos that show up in those early posts, I felt that I had a few things to contribute to that particular discussion that hadn't yet been contributed; things about PR budgets, placements, the general importance of cover art, the importance of bookstores to midlist writers, etc. After these things were said, I went back to lurking, posted in one other thread about things that were not publishing related, and was, again, good.
But -this- second bought of Being Good came to an end when the second thread about Todd James Pierce reared its head. That thread is here: http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005218.html. It was not, in any way, a kind thread, and to make a very long story short, it came out of bad advice for cover letters which TJP had posted on his site for writers. In particular, he advised writers to lie about their credentials in a way that wasn't so obvious they'd be caught, in order to make them stand out in some way.
This is generally not good advice, reasons for which TNH made perfectly clear. I didn't add anything at that point.
But the second thread was one that questioned his credentials and his CV. To me, this seemed harsh and justified; if you're going to encourage people to lie about their credentials, it stands to reason that you should expect that people will then examine yours more closely. Some mockery was made. I was still quiet. John Scalzi invited TJP to read & join in on the thread, but he failed to do so until over a month had passed, and the discussion had branched off into other things, as is inevitable in discussions of that, or any other nature. He did show up. He was offended, hurt, and furious, and threatening lawsuits for slander.
It was only when he showed up in person that I made my first post in any TJP related thread, and it was to question the use of his explanation of why he'd offered the advice in the first place, and the accuracy of it as well. I wasn't personal, but was pointed (no one could probably manage to look surprised at this point, so I'll let it go <g>). I wasn't all that fond of his reply to my comments -- because the only reply he made was to lump me in with a list of Tor authors, and accuse me of supporting my editors. Yay, me. News, I imagine to my -actual- editors, but I digress.
None of this particularly surprised me; if anything did, it was the extent to which he felt he'd been unfairly discussed or mocked. If you encourage people to lie about their credentials, and then defend this in a room full of people in that profession, it shows clearly that you don't expect that your own credentials would ever be under scrutiny. Which makes no sense to me. Had I given that advice, I'd at the least not be surprised if it incurred that reaction.
Okay. The part that's picking at me now: Two women joined in the discussion. One, to point out that we were all unnecessarily mean, and that we all owed TJP an apology. Pardon me? She said she took care not to notice who said what because she didn't want to be prejudiced should she ever be reviewing our submissions as an editor. I'd rather she'd taken that care. I -hate- to be lumped in with a group, and I actually don't like the condescension implied. I called it Class Detention -- and I didn't stay for those if I hadn't done anything wrong. To be fair to her, she also had similar harsh words for TJP, and a very good example of why his advice incurred the initial reaction it did. She had a point, I think, but made it broadly and a bit too sweepingly. And I responded initially to the first half (about the least I owed this stranger) rather than the latter; I responded to the latter half later, when I had cool-off time.
The next person did a drive-by post, one in which she said the same thing: that we were mean, personal, and etc., and that she wasn't going to stick around to defend that judgement; she just wanted to be on record as supporting the first brave woman.
Now hear the sounds of Michelle buttons being pushed (although it took me some time to figure out what the buttons were.
I don't actually like bullies. Never have. Don't generally put up with them. The idea that this poor TJP person is the misunderstood victim of our collective cruelty clearly paints me, as one of the participants, as a bully. Except, damn it, I've reread every word I've written in that topic, and I don't see that it applies to me. Or to many of the other posters.
But it's bugging me, now. As I said, the topic was unkind in inception, but I think that the unkindness was not random; it was a natural result of encouraging others to lie about their credentials. However... I'm perhaps not the most tactful of people, and I'm now wondering if I handled things poorly.
And am perfectly willing to be told that I did, if someone can be clear on why. I won't bite, because I'm asking and I want to know.![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
andpuff is off the hook here; I think that it would take an hour for the discussion to actually load on her connection <g>.
I don't know how many of you have followed, or regularly read, Making Light, the excellent, varied, intelligent and oft pungent blog of Teresa Nielsen Hayden. I was pointed at it by two friends (Chris Szego, for whom I work, and another, as yet unpublished writer, Graydon Saunders, who also lives in Toronto) many months ago, and have lurked more or less frequentIy since then, but I do my best, having learned over time that this is wise, to lurk and keep my opinions in general to myself. This is less hard -- for those of you who know me -- than it might initially appear, because there are some pretty darned smart people who regular post there, and they usually say anything I might say, but with more cutting wit.
This self-imposed silence came to an end (try to look surprised, Stewart) when the Writer's Collective became the topic for discussion -- or rather, when the woman who started it showed up and laid out her reasons for starting it, and her plans for the books she handles. (I was also doing galleys at the time, which makes me a bit squirelly). Although I'm embarrassed by the number of typos that show up in those early posts, I felt that I had a few things to contribute to that particular discussion that hadn't yet been contributed; things about PR budgets, placements, the general importance of cover art, the importance of bookstores to midlist writers, etc. After these things were said, I went back to lurking, posted in one other thread about things that were not publishing related, and was, again, good.
But -this- second bought of Being Good came to an end when the second thread about Todd James Pierce reared its head. That thread is here: http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/005218.html. It was not, in any way, a kind thread, and to make a very long story short, it came out of bad advice for cover letters which TJP had posted on his site for writers. In particular, he advised writers to lie about their credentials in a way that wasn't so obvious they'd be caught, in order to make them stand out in some way.
This is generally not good advice, reasons for which TNH made perfectly clear. I didn't add anything at that point.
But the second thread was one that questioned his credentials and his CV. To me, this seemed harsh and justified; if you're going to encourage people to lie about their credentials, it stands to reason that you should expect that people will then examine yours more closely. Some mockery was made. I was still quiet. John Scalzi invited TJP to read & join in on the thread, but he failed to do so until over a month had passed, and the discussion had branched off into other things, as is inevitable in discussions of that, or any other nature. He did show up. He was offended, hurt, and furious, and threatening lawsuits for slander.
It was only when he showed up in person that I made my first post in any TJP related thread, and it was to question the use of his explanation of why he'd offered the advice in the first place, and the accuracy of it as well. I wasn't personal, but was pointed (no one could probably manage to look surprised at this point, so I'll let it go <g>). I wasn't all that fond of his reply to my comments -- because the only reply he made was to lump me in with a list of Tor authors, and accuse me of supporting my editors. Yay, me. News, I imagine to my -actual- editors, but I digress.
None of this particularly surprised me; if anything did, it was the extent to which he felt he'd been unfairly discussed or mocked. If you encourage people to lie about their credentials, and then defend this in a room full of people in that profession, it shows clearly that you don't expect that your own credentials would ever be under scrutiny. Which makes no sense to me. Had I given that advice, I'd at the least not be surprised if it incurred that reaction.
Okay. The part that's picking at me now: Two women joined in the discussion. One, to point out that we were all unnecessarily mean, and that we all owed TJP an apology. Pardon me? She said she took care not to notice who said what because she didn't want to be prejudiced should she ever be reviewing our submissions as an editor. I'd rather she'd taken that care. I -hate- to be lumped in with a group, and I actually don't like the condescension implied. I called it Class Detention -- and I didn't stay for those if I hadn't done anything wrong. To be fair to her, she also had similar harsh words for TJP, and a very good example of why his advice incurred the initial reaction it did. She had a point, I think, but made it broadly and a bit too sweepingly. And I responded initially to the first half (about the least I owed this stranger) rather than the latter; I responded to the latter half later, when I had cool-off time.
The next person did a drive-by post, one in which she said the same thing: that we were mean, personal, and etc., and that she wasn't going to stick around to defend that judgement; she just wanted to be on record as supporting the first brave woman.
Now hear the sounds of Michelle buttons being pushed (although it took me some time to figure out what the buttons were.
I don't actually like bullies. Never have. Don't generally put up with them. The idea that this poor TJP person is the misunderstood victim of our collective cruelty clearly paints me, as one of the participants, as a bully. Except, damn it, I've reread every word I've written in that topic, and I don't see that it applies to me. Or to many of the other posters.
But it's bugging me, now. As I said, the topic was unkind in inception, but I think that the unkindness was not random; it was a natural result of encouraging others to lie about their credentials. However... I'm perhaps not the most tactful of people, and I'm now wondering if I handled things poorly.
And am perfectly willing to be told that I did, if someone can be clear on why. I won't bite, because I'm asking and I want to know.
andpuff is off the hook here; I think that it would take an hour for the discussion to actually load on her connection <g>.
not even sarcastic
Date: 2004-06-29 06:32 am (UTC)You yourself weren't even sarcastic; I might have thought you were quite restrained in your locutions.
The "you were mean!" posts are coming from a place which insists that niceness is so due the deference of virtue, its ornaments and its antecedents, and indeed an escort of cherubim with trumpets, and which will not permit anyone to be tasked for their conduct, lest they become upset.
So I would say you didn't handle anything poorly; you're just dealing with people who go blank and horrified if anyone is upset for any reason. (It's the same tribe as thinks that you can win an argument by being more emotionally invested and starting to cry, at which point the other party has to do what you want.)
-- Graydon (not that it will take Michelle more than one of those sentences to figure that out. :)
Re: not even sarcastic
Date: 2004-06-29 08:09 am (UTC)Re: not even sarcastic
Date: 2004-06-29 09:47 am (UTC)Graydon has also articulated a concept which illuded my abilities at description at 6am.. ;D
'Mary Ann' is even the perfect name for someone who prefers blanket niceness in the face of prideful stupidity *g*
Re: not even sarcastic
Date: 2004-06-29 05:26 pm (UTC)I can understand where she is, in general, coming from. In this case, I think I'm much more acerbic, and I don't think that things were as terrible as all that. I don't know. Old cynic. I've seen mean, and I think people were, with the possible exception of 2 and a half, restrained. In their context.
But... on GEnie, there were some topics that were parlours, some that were little old lady knitting rooms, some that were salons, and some that were tavern brawls. You didn't like tavern brawls, you didn't go in. This strikes me as walking into a pub and exhorting people to stop that sinful drinking -- but again, regardless, it did take courage.