msagara | Some ruminations on fanfic and other fan creations

Some time ago, during the discussions inevitably caused by the Anne Rice debacle, I said that I would discuss my views on fanfic. I've been thinking about this in bits and pieces since that point, because I have two views about it (generally, I have at least two about almost everything, except perhaps for the upcoming US election, and I will fail to discuss the single view I have because I'm not a US citizen).

My personal view -- and by personal I mean it is a view which pertains only to such things as they affect me -- first. So everything I say for the next few paragraphs is specifically about my work, or responses to my work.

I find it enormously flattering that something about my work speaks strongly enough to some people that they are compelled to write about those elements. I adore my characters -- pretty much all of them -- and I don't, umm, write a lot of sex, and much of the relationship stuff is subtle enough that even my mother missed it. I'm not sure how much room there is in the cracks of the story -- I tend to think that it's the books in which there are obvious wide and undocumented story spaces that lend themselves best to fanfic writing -- but I don't write fanfic, so what do I know? (Yes, I invite comment).

I'm perfectly happy to have other people write fanfic, and I find the fact that some people do want to do this flattering. I don't have any desire to read what they've written, however, and not just for legal reasons (as in, to avoid later being accused of somehow stealing their ideas, which did happen once, and caused a lot of authors who had previously turned a blind eye to turn a legal eye in its place); these characters have an arc and a life that's entirely on the inside of my Byzantine mind, and while I'm happy that they have an effect on other people, I like to keep that effect and my own sense of who they are completely separate. I don't want to have the "but they would never do that" reaction, because obviously -- to the people who did write the story -- the characters would.

This makes me somehow feel that I've been incompetent; that I've failed to write the characters in such a way that they're clear enough that this would be obvious. Which I realize is entirely beside the point. I'm not a good judge in that sense because I'm entirely too close to the characters. So the reading of secondary creation? It's not something I can reasonably do. I'm happy if others can, and if they build a community on that, even in a small way, that's fine with me; I can't be part of it, but I don't hate or decry it.

I have a different reaction to non-written things based on my work.

Someone recently gave me a CD of recorded variants of a song that she'd written; it's based on lyrics in one of my novels, and I adore it. I listen to it sometimes before I write because there's a sense of pride -- if that's quite the right word -- that comes when I realize that this music was inspired by something I created. It's like a gift in ways I can't explain. It would never have happened if I hadn't written these books. I would never have met the person in question, if I hadn't. And it's something I could never have done for myself; I'm not so musically inclined.

Some fan art has also been done, but I've seen only a little of it; someone sent me a "chibi diora", which I'd use as an icon if I had any graphics ability at all (I generally pass on all such task to my son's godfather; I'm willing to keep an network up and running, but I'm not willing to tangle with Adobe software; my ~~bravery~~ foolishness has limits.)

I find the fan art interesting because I'm not a visual person. It takes an enormous amount of work for me to see things as I write them; I have to externalize them, and I tend to write from a very internal perspective. When someone paints or draws their vision of a character, it doesn't clash with mine because I so seldom have a full-blown one; there are details that are important to me, but not so important that they destroy my curiosity or even enjoyment.

So. On a purely personal level, it's all good to me.

My professional view, however, is that my personal take is just that -- personal. I have no particular contempt for, annoyance at, or in fact, opinion on any other writer's views. If Robin Hobb emphatically states that there will be no fanfic about her worlds, that's her right. Actually, I'll take that back -- I do have an opinion (yes, yes, I know, that silence is not the silence of shock or surprise).

I believe that, in the case where the creator of the primary universe has so clearly stated her preferences, they should be respected. If, in theory, the drive to create works aligned with a world comes from the love of the world created, I believe that some deference is owed the creator of said world. Hobb is my example solely because I happened to be going through her web-site FAQ looking for information about her forthcoming novel for the store. There are plenty of other authors who have the same strong attachments to their characters and universes, and who decry the writing of any fiction in those universes, or about those characters, that doesn't originate from them, or through them.

That's their right. In speaking of my own preferences or opinions, I have no intention of stepping on their feet, or somehow lessening the respect I have for the way they exercise their rights. If they find it less then flattering, or even threatening (I realize that the whole copyright question is grey, and different lawyers fall on different sides of the argument), I think they have the right to do what they have to do to be able to sleep at night, as it were.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

blythe025.livejournal.com

And I completely agree.

I mean, I think you have said exactly my feelings on the subject, too. (Except that I don't have any published work for people to write about.

From:

yhlee.livejournal.com

I know of only one"fan" work based on something I've written, and it's based on a draft and is now terribly obsolete. It rather flattered me. I think right now my take on hypothetical fanworks is about where yours is, including the respect-the-author's-wishes bit. I'm generally less attached to my characters, but I think if I don't have to read it, I really don't care.

All this could change if fanworks actually appeared, though, and I try to keep that in mind as well. :-p

This was a pointless response to a thoughtful post, I'm afraid...

From:

stakebait.livejournal.com

I do write fanfic and I agree, the books that lend themselves most to fanfic are the ones with wide open story spaces to fill in. But that said, most books have wide open gaps before and after the action, if not during, and almost all books have the might have beens of what could have gone a different way. So there's room for fanfic in most things if you're looking for it.

The texts -- books or plays or TV shows or what have you -- that I'm most interested in looking for room for fanfic tend to be character driven, because it's the characters that carry over. They tend to have relatively transparent writing styles, because if what I love the books for is the narrative tone (as with Pratchett or Austen) I'm unlikely to capture it to my satisfaction, or to be happy without it.

They tend to have large worlds that derive their sense of reality from our seeing hints of more complexity than we ever can see fulfilled, because even if there's no space in the story per se, there's space in the universe for other stories.

They tend to have a largish cast of characters, because that increases the number of conversations, conflicts, and relationships that could have happened but didn't.

And they tend to have themes that resonate with what moves me to write. There are many, many books I love reading but have no desire to write in, because I have nothing to say with those tools.

I'm also more likely to write fanfic for an ongoing series, because there's something about that waiting for the next installment that stimulates what-ifs. If it's a stand alone book, or a series that's complete before I come to it, I may still want something more or something different, but not as often.

I'm also more likely to write fanfic for something with an active fan community, because I know someone will want to read it, and because their comments and ideas spark my own.

I don't, personally, write fanfic in any universe where the creator has asked that fanfic not be written. (I have once written in a fandom where as far as I know the author has expressed no opinion.) For me this is a question of manners. I would, however, be fine with writing in a fandom where the actual creator is fine with it, but the rights holder (TV or movie studio, or publishing company) was not.

I don't, however, go quite so far as to say no one else should defy an author's stated wishes. I can think of situations where the drive to create works aligned with a world would come not from love of the world but with frustration at a good idea with its potential wasted, or a driving desire to show what is, in your opinion, missing or wrong with the original story, or where one's initial love of a world is equaled or exceeded by one's grief at what has been done with it afterwards.

I agree that the creator of the world deserves some deference, but I don't necessarily think that deference trumps all other considerations. To me fanfiction is a form of artistic conversation, as parody is, or retellings like the Wind Done Gone or Wicked. As such I think this is one of those situations, as with academia, or book reviews, or politics, where good manners may be not always be more important than a robust dialogue.

From:

msagara.livejournal.com

I agree that the creator of the world deserves some deference, but I don't necessarily think that deference trumps all other considerations. To me fanfiction is a form of artistic conversation, as parody is, or retellings like the Wind Done Gone or Wicked. As such I think this is one of those situations, as with academia, or book reviews, or politics, where good manners may be not always be more important than a robust dialogue.

This is an interesting take on fanfic that I hadn't considered. In all of the other situations you posit -- parody, review, academia -- the forms are also published, and the theme of public discourse can be more clearly seen (to me, at any rate); the idea of a public discourse in which half of the argument isn't public is interesting. I have to think about it a bit.

From:

stakebait.livejournal.com

Huh. Interesting! For my part, I never considered it not public. I post my fanfiction to the Internet. I won't be arrogant enough to think much of the public is interested in reading it, but a few do and all can. And even the more restricted zine or mailing list publishing strikes me as much like the APAs of old -- a small audience, but still a public one.

It's not professionally published -- that would be treading the wrong side of the deference line, as well as weakening a fair use legal defense, and anyway no reputable publisher would touch it. But it's still out there, and being read and critiqued by fans of the original work and the occasion fan of the fannish writer.

Fanfic is even covered in the press periodically (though usually not well.) It's even being studied academically, though that's just beginning to branch out from a sociological "why do these people behave like this?" method into consideration of fanfic as a text like any other. I guess I'm not clear what the criteria for public are?

The most awkward part is that the creators themselves tend to avoid seeing it, as you say, so there can't be a response from them directly. But as with most book reviews, fanfic isn't really aimed at a conversation with the author, it's aimed at a conversation with the other readers about the author's work.

From:

stakebait.livejournal.com

Been thinking more about this. What makes it not public is the attempt to fly under the radar of the Powers That Be, right? Or at least not actively draw their attention? Though how much that's done varies quite a bit from creator to creator. I know of at least one mailing list, read and posted to by the author, where fanfic is simply labeled "fanfic" so she can avoid reading it, but there's no attempt to pretend that it doesn't exist.

Still, it does happen. It's more like an underground newspaper, in that sense. Which, I would argue, is still entitled to do book reviews and write political editorials.

I'd rather everything were aboveboard and able to be openly discussed, but that's where that legal grey area comes in. As long as fanfic writers can't afford to be a test case, it's just easier to keep your head down and hide, in the crowd if not altogether. That also becomes a manners question -- of not endangering fellow community members, and of not forcing someone to take notice of something they were turning a blind eye to.

In that sense it's almost like a pre-Stonewall gay community. Not entirely public, but not entirely private either. But I think if it *could* be entirely public, it would be. It's when certain forms of discourse are banned or chilled that they go underground. If that then disqualifies them as discourse, I think we have the potential for a catch 22.

From:

jediboadicea.livejournal.com

As such I think this is one of those situations, as with academia, or book reviews, or politics, where good manners may be not always be more important than a robust dialogue.

This is a very interesting point. On certain levels, I agree with you. In the same way that I feel fans (or an audience in general) have the right to discuss and debate the source material which has drawn them together, I agree that fanfic can be seen as an extension of this discussion.

However, extension though it might be, I do see a dividing line between discussion and fanfic, thin or otherwise. It's a line which may not actually prove of much signficance... until or unless the creator of the source material weighs in on the matter. This distinction may be purely a matter of my personal comfort with the issue, but I know how I would feel, as an author, if I explicitly asked for people to respect my creation, only to have that request ignored.

That said, I also (sometimes) feel that the more... vituperative... requests made by some authors to that purpose seem to have at least the result, if not the intent, of insulting the fanbase rather than defending the creator's position. In this, as in everything else, there are good and bad examples of both sides.

Ultimately, however, I think my discomfort with the idea that fanfic can, in some cases, trump deference to the author, stems from what I consider to be the slippery slope of the whole "my interpretation is more valid than the author's" mode of thinking. I realize that this is loosely based in a general school of thought in regards to approaching literature as a whole, but then, it makes me uncomfortable there too. < wry g >

I have seen the "personal interpretation matters more than authorial intent" argument produce vehemently defended fanfiction which stands in direct opposition to the source material which inspired it, and when it comes to that point I guess I just have to wonder why one would be writing fanfic for the story at all, if seemingly what one desires to do with it is merely to produce something which no longer resembles the original material anyway.

I realize, however, that this is not the argument you're making. :) I'm merely attempting to explain why I personally lean first toward the "deference trumps all" side of the fence, in general.

But as an eager fanfic writer myself, I can say that I totally understand/agree with all the examples you listed, as reasons for feeling compelled to write derivative fiction.

Also:

They tend to have relatively transparent writing styles, because if what I love the books for is the narrative tone (as with Pratchett or Austen) I'm unlikely to capture it to my satisfaction, or to be happy without it.

This is key, for me. And also why I feel very comfortable writing fanfic for tv or movies, but very rarely comfortable writing it for books. Unless the writing style is relatively transparent, I don't feel comfortable or even eager to wade in; I'd much rather read it by the master, because that's what I love about it in the first place - the fact that it's never something I could have crafted on my own, and therefore something that can move me in ways nothing I write ever could.

From:

stakebait.livejournal.com

::nods:: I am more of the reader response school of criticism, which probably does influence my relative proritizing. I'm interested in authorial intent, but I'm firmly of the belief that there's more to be found in any text than the author intentionally put there -- largely because of how very often hindsight or someone else has pointed out something I didn't consciously put into my own stuff.

Indeed, I think it is applicablity to more than was ever dreamt of by the author that keeps certain texts relevant long after their contemporaries.

For me it's not so much a question of *more* valid than the author's. It's more like... cloudwatching. I see a rabbit in the clouds, and the fact that the clouds didn't intentionally form into the shape of a rabbit doesn't mean the shape's not there now. It also doesn't mean you're wrong if you see a cat instead.

Not that that prevents me from thinking some readers must be smoking the good crack, or getting irritated with fanfic which seems to run directly counter to canon without even making an attempt to reconcile the two. I'm right there with you on "but then why are you bothering to call it fanfic?" although someone recently posted an essay about archetype v. character in fanfic to

metablog that I think provides a partial answer.

Part of the reason I don't see a dividing line between discussion and fanfiction is that in general I think there are things that can be said in fiction (or in music, or in painting) that can't be said in prose. Or even if someone could, there are people who speak fiction who don't speak lit crit.

If we can't stand to lose those contributions to the general conversation (and we can't, hence why fiction is protected speech), I don't want to lose them from the specific conversation about a particular work of art, either. This is also why I support sampling and collage.

That's not to say I wouldn't be hurt if, as an author, I asked people not to and they did. But I'm sure I'd be hurt by bad reviews too. That doesn't mean I think people shouldn't ever write them.

From:

zhaneel69.livejournal.com

Your personal view is close to mine.

My professional take:

If I know an author has said "No FanFic" I won't write any [not that I ever have written any, mind, but I've been tempted]. I suspect I don't know every author's views and believe that many fanfic authors don't necessarily know that the author has expressed a distaste. Frex, until this post I had no idea Robin Hobb had a stance on her characters.

The comment from

stakebait made me think. I believe anyone should be able to write fanfic. I just don't think that people should run around posting it or publishing it if the author has said "No."

I can write as many Valdemar take-offs as I want, involving Vanyel and Elspbeth [his Great*50+ Granddaughter] in whatever circumstance I want, AS LONG AS I DON'T PUBLISH THEM. IMO. If Misty has said [I don't currently know her stance] no fanfic, then I would be wrong to peddle them around to Valdemar communities (of course, I would also be wrong for being untrue to the characters and breaking huge amounts of cannon).

As such, I believe that fanfic authors should feel free to write whatever they want. And perhaps even share with 1-3 friends. But if the author has made a statement, I believe that any fanfic author who knows about such statement should not start a FanFic group or post said fanfic publically.

Professional courtsey.

Zhaneel

From:

madwriter.livejournal.com

I also think I'd be flattered if someone wrote fanfic based on my stuff. My only real worry might be that they write my characters better than I do. :)

From:

papersky.livejournal.com

I don't find it threatening, I find it emotionally much like the time I gave a homeless person a coin and he spat at me. I emphatically don't give permission, and if I find someone doing it without my permission I'll go to any necessary lengths to stop them.

Having said that, Lois Bujold gave me permission to write a fanfic play that purports to be written in her universe (it's on my web page) and if someone wanted to do something like that, something going off sideways in another medium, that might be OK, if they asked.

From:

zhaneel69.livejournal.com

From:

dark-geisha.livejournal.com

Your opinion of fanfic is pretty much the same as mine. It does bother me when people ignore an author's wishes and go ahead with writing a fanfic and spreading it all over the internet. I understand wanting to show your love for a work you admire; in a way, that's flattering. But at the same time, it's disrespectful to the author.

I do think -- the internet being what it is and such -- it is a good idea for an author is set down the "ground rules" for her creations. Robin Hobb says no. Neil Gaiman says he doesn't care. Jacqueline Carey says you can play in the world, but can't use the characters in her novels. There is the issue of that information not disseminating to the masses, but overall I do think it works with the younger and younger generations since we're so connected to the internet.

On another note, if your son's godfather won't make the Chibi Diora into an icon, I'd be more than happy too. I have fun with Adobe Photoshop. :)

From:

msagara.livejournal.com

On another note, if your son's godfather won't make the Chibi Diora into an icon, I'd be more than happy too. I have fun with Adobe Photoshop. :)

I'm not sure who actually did the art; I'd love to use it, but I'd have to actually hunt them down and ask. I do have a small .gif of it, but someone sent it so I could look at it; I'm not sure how they'd feel if I iconized it <wry g>.

From:

twiegand.livejournal.com

I don't write fanfic. I have enjoyed many a fine story and created world that has left me speculating on the characters or storylines yet I have never felt the desire to write in someone else's realm. The stories I want to tell come from me and I would feel I was a thief to take the labor and creativity of another and co-opt for myself. On the other hand, I will freely admit that some works have given me inspiration to examine and develop a story that is independent and has nothing in common, other than that germ of an idea, with the work of the author.

The stories based on an author's work that I truly want to see, if the work excites me, are the stories that the author is telling or going to tell. I want their views and expressions of opinion, love, theology, sociology or whatever. This permits me to examine my views and possibly change them for the better.

If somebody feels the desire to write fanfic, I would let them provided it is for personal use only. What they write in that manner is their business. I feel no need or desire to see it.

If an author wishes that there be no fanfic based on their work, I see it similar to a no tresspassing sign on their property. That doesn't mean that no one is allowed on the land but that you must get permission to be there first. You may still view the property from a distance but you don't get to tromp all over it and pollute what is there.

I thank all of the writers I know that they allow others to enjoy their efforts and the results thereof.

From:

trektone.livejournal.com

I have a different reaction to non-written things based on my work.

I've only slightly considered songs I've written based on others' stories "fanfic" but your rumination has made me think about this a bit more. In your example, someone else put music to your lyrics, but they were still your words. If someone wrote a song based on one of your characters or stories, would you consider it fanfic? Even if it's a straight-ahead plot summary (don't like those kinds of songs myself), it would still be a point of view different from yours because it's not your writing, isn't it? And if the summary is not what you thought you wrote, wouldn't that be a case of "hey, they wouldn't do that or it didn't go there?"

What about poetry based on or "inspired by" your stuff? You wouldn't want to read it?

While I've always considered these songs I wrote derivative works (fun panel at the Toronto Worldcon last year, btw) and have yet to have a negative reaction by the author, I try to be very sensitive to both their preferences and legal position in this matter.

So would you sue me if you found out I wrote and performed a song about Kallandras doing the horizontal mambo with (fill in the blank)? Or would you simply not want to hear it? Or would you want to hear it but not read it? :)

From:

msagara.livejournal.com

I'm going to pretend that you're not doing this to poke subtle fun at me. Because I trust you. Really <g>.

If someone wrote a song based on one of your characters or stories, would you consider it fanfic? Even if it's a straight-ahead plot summary (don't like those kinds of songs myself), it would still be a point of view different from yours because it's not your writing, isn't it? And if the summary is not what you thought you wrote, wouldn't that be a case of "hey, they wouldn't do that or it didn't go there?"

As we saw in "Once More With Feeling" you can specifically state things -- in words with music attached -- that you cannot state without the music without sounding hopelessly, derivatively, horribly bad. The words one chooses for songs are therefore by structural nature different than the words one chooses for novels. So, in that case it would be like the art: An interesting interpretation, a different way of viewing.

What about poetry based on or "inspired by" your stuff? You wouldn't want to read it?

No, I probably wouldn't. But that would partly be because of the various types of less than professional words on the 'net, the ones that cause me -- this is me, curmudgeon, crank, grouch -- intense personal wincing pain is the poetry. If someone professional wrote poetry based on it? I probably wouldn't be able to tell what its source was. So I wouldn't care, at that point.

While I've always considered these songs I wrote derivative works (fun panel at the Toronto Worldcon last year, btw) and have yet to have a negative reaction by the author, I try to be very sensitive to both their preferences and legal position in this matter.

So would you sue me if you found out I wrote and performed a song about Kallandras doing the horizontal mambo with (fill in the blank)? Or would you simply not want to hear it? Or would you want to hear it but not read it? :)

This would be, I believe, considered either "satire" or "parody". You may remember that in open filks, both Thomas and I had a penchant for the Serious songs (and that I made

folkmew sing "Lullabye for a Weary World" on every possible occasion, which would be anytime I laid eyes on her and she could actually hear me). So, no, I would not sue you, and yes, I would be amused because it is you, but I'd still probably ask MEW to sing "Lullabye". Well, or Light Sailor, which I heard once and have been obssessing about recently :/.

From:

matociquala.livejournal.com

Succinctly and sharply put, as always, and exactly parallel with my own policy on such things.

You rock. *g*

From:

msagara.livejournal.com

Succinctly and sharply put, as always, and exactly parallel with my own policy on such things.

The curse of the on-line people is that they're doomed to repeat what's been said before, and often better <wry g>. I could have just pointed to your earlier comments and said "this".

Having said that, I'm aware that a number of people aren't fans of fanfic. I don't generally read it, so it wasn't until fairly recently that I was aware of just how much fanfic is written; it seems to be a huge movement of its own, and all 'underground'.

I know that in Japan, the equivalent of fanfic is published (the Doujinshi), and I'm wondering how that's done -- if the creator signs away the rights, but is still acknowledged otherwise.

From:

matociquala.livejournal.com

I think you did a tidier job than I did, frankly. I don't think I'd ever actually read any fanfiction before about two years ago; the proliferation of people on my reading list who write it means that I have, since (the first fanfiction I ever read was Cassie Clare's Very Secret Diaries, and I was pleasantly surprised by how darn good it was), although I've been exposed to a bit more as chunks of livejournal fandom seem to have adopted me.

From:

prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com

As I understand it, not all doujinshi are fan fiction. Some are just amateur-published comics with limited print runs. Doujinshi that are fan fiction aren't technically legal, but they're tolerated. For one thing, it makes fans happy, which widens the fan base. For another, they're a good way for publishers to scout new talent.

Sometimes, creators will officially waive the copyright for a few days at a time (say for the week of a major comics convention) so that fans can legally sell and trade doujinshi in that period. Also, a lot of creators started out as doujinshi artists themselves. They sometimes go on record as encouraging fan doujinshi for their work.

Japanese consider doujinshi as similar to our adaptations of Shakespeare's plays. They could prosecute if they wanted to, but they don't see the harm in fans creatively reinterpreting their work. They've still got the original, and that's what people will always come back to. So Japanese are much more likely to crack down on the outright reproduction of 'canon' work, which ticks them off to no end since they're so generous otherwise.

From:

msagara.livejournal.com

Japanese consider doujinshi as similar to our adaptations of Shakespeare's plays. They could prosecute if they wanted to, but they don't see the harm in fans creatively reinterpreting their work. They've still got the original, and that's what people will always come back to. So Japanese are much more likely to crack down on the outright reproduction of 'canon' work, which ticks them off to no end since they're so generous otherwise.

I can understand this, both parts. Do you know if something similar to Doujinshi exists for works that are entirely textual?

From:

prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com

Japan's novels don't seem to be quite the same animal as ours. Here, you can write a novel on just about anything. In Japan, novels are considered appropriate to certain subjects--mostly historical fiction and (often fictional) biography. Those genres don't inspire much fanfiction (and what does appear takes the form of doujinshi).

I think that part of this is because, in Japan, they've had the novel since the 11th century. It's a well-respected form, with long-established conventions and rules much like our sonnets have, for example. The Japanese have a lot of reverence for their history and culture, and they're inclined to view 'traditional' novels as a piece of literary heritage. On the other hand, novels that step out of those bounds are seen as pop culture, and they're fair game for the usual treatment.

Some of these 'experimental' novels have appeared in Japan in the past couple of decades. One fellow in the 80s wrote a fantasy/horror series about a vampire hunter, which produced a fair amount of fan work even before the anime movie came out (Vampire Hunter D)--again, it all seems to be doujinshi. I guess it's the accepted medium. But then, comics in any form are huge over there. Something like 30% of the annual Japanese publishing profits are from comics.

I suppose it's not exactly the same thing. One of the reasons I seldom write fanfic based on books is because they're the same medium. It feels a bit weird, as if they could 'bleed over' somehow. But since doujinshi are established as a forum for that sort of thing, the threat and awkwardness are probably less. Also, doujinshi are usually limited to a print run of a few thousand at most, so it's not as if they'll forever alter the canon interpretation.

Besides...I dunno, they just seem more like an expression of appreciation than fanfic does. Maybe because you have to invest a LOT of work to script and illustrate a comic for even a small print run, while some fanfic is just slopped together and posted on the Web without even a spellcheck (gaaah!--don't they teach people grammar anymore?!).

From:

alfreda89.livejournal.com

Total non-sequiter....

Hey! That's my Cthulhu! He sits on my monitor!

(We now return you to the interesting discussion about fanfic. I see I need a FAQ page...I've never spelled out my thoughts on this. I don't think anyone is doing fanfic on my stuff, but because of possible legal issues, I've never looked.)

From:

dark-geisha.livejournal.com

Well, Japanese copyright laws are a little more dodgy. Most doujinshi artists don't make any profit at all from their creations. It's the people who buy them, then put them up for auction on eBay who makes a killing. I have some Rurouni Kenshin doujinshi, which is why I know. Certain artists and groups go for high amounts of money, especially given the collectible aspect of it. They have "low print-runs," if you can even call them print-runs. The rarer the doujinshi and the more popular the artist, the higher the price goes up.

The thing about doujinshi is that you see a lot of interesting stuff. Like the person above said, it's not all derivative. Some of it is original, but it tends to be rougher around the edges. It's not what gets published in the manga-zasshi. Even then, only the more popular titles from the manga-zasshi get collected into the tankoubon. Add in the filter of domestic licensure and the pool of titles goes down even more. (One of my friends is a junior editor at TOKYOPOP, so it's fascinating to read her lj entries on acquisition meetings. Apparently the editors sit around and flip through manga-zasshi, trying to find titles that look good.)

Some popular artists came from the doujinshi pool -- CLAMP (although that original group of 10 has narrowed down the four we know today) and Kazuya Minekura are two prime examples. In fact, the original concept of Saiyuki was a doujinshi. It attracted so much attention, it was picked up for a trial run.

I do know an instance where some publisher collected doujinshi based upon Saiyuki and printed it in a bound book version. The publisher sold it and made a profit. Minekura sued and won that lawsuit, IIRC. So I think there are limitations to fair usage in derivative doujinshi.

From:

jediboadicea.livejournal.com

I will try to stop glowing and floating and gibbering happily, and try instead to contribute something meaningful to the discussion. :)

I think your point about showing deference and respect for the author, their work, and their wishes, is of the utmost importance. I have written a lot of fanfic in my day, but never for a story whose author/creator has made it clear that fanfic is not acceptable. (When I hear that, any desire I might have had to do so is lost. It isn't even a matter of whether or not to "share" it - I simply have too much respect for any author to muck about in their creation if I know it would upset them.) And even in the case of an author whose reaction to fanfic is either indifferent or even positive, I think a respect for the integrity of the work and the author's vision is absolutely necessary. I feel that if you love an author's work enough to want to write fanfic, then you should also love them enough to respect their wishes. At least in public.

To be honest, I don't often feel compelled to write fanfic for books. For movies and tv series, yes - probably because these go straight into the brain as character essence, with little to no narrative patterns in tandem. With a book, the essence of the reading experience is the composition of the actual words, and in general if I loved the words enough to love the book, then chances are I'm not going to want to muddy that perfection with my clumsy interjections or alterations. In most cases, with books, the thought doesn't even occur to me.

There is only one book for which I have ever written fanfic, and this is because it combined two very important and complementary elements for a fanfic writer. One - it had countless, countless gaps to be filled. Two - the actual writing of the story was not what impressed itself upon me. Reading this story felt more like watching a tv series; I could see and love the characters, and the action, but the quality of the actual words did not cast a lasting shadow on my mind.

All that said, I admit that I'm not entirely sure why there are some stories for which I feel comfortable writing fanfic, and some for which I don't. In the end, the number on the "comfortable" side is very small. (Though sometimes this is hard to believe, given the output.)

I think, however, that the biggest lure and reward of fanfic is the sense of community shared with other fans in the process of sharing the work. Without this, I don't think there are many people quite obsessive enough to write a derivative work purely for their own private enjoyment. I happen to be one of them, but that's neither here nor there, nor particularly healthy. < wry g >

In a community sense, fanfic is often regarded as the basis for a shared sense of writer's workshopping. I have heard the argument (countless times) that writing fanfic is a good way for aspiring/beginning writers to cut their teeth on the craft. I'm afraid I don't agree with this, but among fanfic writers, I am in the minority on this issue. I tend to be of the opinion that writing fanfic is like shining someone else's shoes -- you're undoubtedly improving your polishing ability, but becoming an expert shoe-shiner, even one with style and flair, is not going to turn you into a cobbler. The best way to sharpen your cobbling skills is to make your own shoes. Polish purely for the joy of it, that's my motto. < g >

From:

larryhammer

I confess I find the whole issue of fanfic, well, boring. I'd ignore it completely, if it weren't that what I do to Greek mythology lies somewhere on the front end of the {fanfic/reuse/retelling/commentary/allusion} spectrum, and it's slashy to boot. So I really ought to be paying attention, at least to the theory. Not that we have a good literary theory of fanfic, or even much in the way of critical tools beyond the concept of mimetogenic works.

---L.

From:

oyceter

Curious question: When do you think an author's works enter into public domain?

I'm not sure if "public domain" is quite the term I'm looking for, but I'm thinking of assorted published novels (ex. Cosette or Scarlett or Wide Sargasso Sea) written about the same characters and in the same world as other published novels.

This is going to sound horribly mercenary or cold-hearted or some such, but while I can very much understand respecting an author's wishes while the author is alive and probably several generations after, do you think that their works ever pass a point in which they.. not belong, but.. are more in the hands of the public, I suppose?

I ask mostly because I think many people see a very clear delineation between writing different takes of famous novels of the past versus fanfiction.

From:

msagara.livejournal.com

I ask mostly because I think many people see a very clear delineation between writing different takes of famous novels of the past versus fanfiction.

I think people see a clear delineation because of the venue. Those books that are takes on past famous novels are, well, books. They've been published as books, and no one has been sued. Which wouldn't happen if, say, someone wanted to publish an TV-related fanfic, or Harry Potter related fanfic in a traditional channel -- not without a bunch of permissions that would make a lot of lawyers richer <wry g>.

I'm not saying that this is entirely reasonable; rather, I'm offering an explanation for why it's viewed differently. It does become a dialogue of sorts with the past because both things are in the same form.

I'm not sure how to answer the question -- and no, to me it doesn't sound mercenary. Laurie King's take on Holmes wouldn't exist without the prior work, for instance.

From:

oyceter

I can definitely see the extra status that being officially published confers, although, heh, sometimes people are sued anyway (Wind Done Gone).

A bit off topic, but I've always found movie tie-ins or TV-related novelizations to be incredibly boring, even though I enjoy fan fiction. I think part of it has to do with the legalities -- as a reader, I know that whoever is writing the official tie-ins doesn't have as much license, and as such, the book is generally not going to dramatically change the canon of the universe. No one is going to be killed off permanently or fall in love with someone unthinkable, etc. But I think that has more to do with keeping a franchise alive than with the intrinsic nature of a published tie-in.

I've always wondered about the slippery slope -- most people would consider fairy tales and myths public domain, despite the fact that there are authorial sources for some. Some people would consider "famous" novels or stories of the past few centuries public domain, while others don't, ergo lawsuits against Wind Done Gone. And most people would consider contemporary novels solely the author's property. Hee, this is probably what I would have ended up writing my thesis on had I not gotten sucked into anime ;).

From:

msagara.livejournal.com

A bit off topic, but I've always found movie tie-ins or TV-related novelizations to be incredibly boring, even though I enjoy fan fiction. I think part of it has to do with the legalities -- as a reader, I know that whoever is writing the official tie-ins doesn't have as much license, and as such, the book is generally not going to dramatically change the canon of the universe. No one is going to be killed off permanently or fall in love with someone unthinkable, etc. But I think that has more to do with keeping a franchise alive than with the intrinsic nature of a published tie-in.

The first few Trek novels -- which were written by SF/F authors who had published other work but had a fondness for Original Trek -- were published before Next Gen was a glimmer in anyone's eye. Because of this, they could do almost anything in those books, and some of the old books were fabulous. John Ford's Final Reflection, for instance. But once the Next Gen show had been established the licensor cracked down on the plots and those books became a lot less fun in every possible way.

And yes, there are limits on the novels. I did write a Buffy short story (Summer Vacation), and I so badly wanted to write a Buffy novel -- it was the only time I've felt that I could, because I knew who all the characters were at the beginning of the second season; the cause and effect changes didn't start to fluctuate until season 3, imho. But... at the time, well into Season Three, the bible had become this: There was no Mayor. There was no Faith. Angel had kind of ... not died somehow, and they were all living in second season Sunnydale. And in that amorphous atmosphere, I couldn't see the clarity or sharpness of the characters. The short story was enough; I really enjoyed writing it, I appreciate the right of the licensor to make decisions on the characters, and I disagreed with some of their decisions -- but it taught me a lot, and I'm not sorry I did it. I would have written more, as I've said elsewhere, but as a Buffy story, I didn't get positive feedback from it until long after it had been published, and this clearly indicated to me that whatever it was that I saw or that spoke to me in that show wasn't what was speaking to other readers.

I've always wondered about the slippery slope -- most people would consider fairy tales and myths public domain, despite the fact that there are authorial sources for some. Some people would consider "famous" novels or stories of the past few centuries public domain, while others don't, ergo lawsuits against Wind Done Gone. And most people would consider contemporary novels solely the author's property. Hee, this is probably what I would have ended up writing my thesis on had I not gotten sucked into anime ;).

I consider what's done with source to be as important as the source. Myths, religion, fairy tales -- the reason they work as source material is that they're in theory part of the greater public consciousness. So any reworking of the elements takes that greater awareness and subverts it, or modernizes it, casting it in a way that sheds light on the here and now from the vantage of the greater mythic scope.

From:

oyceter

I consider what's done with source to be as important as the source. Myths, religion, fairy tales -- the reason they work as source material is that they're in theory part of the greater public consciousness. So any reworking of the elements takes that greater awareness and subverts it, or modernizes it, casting it in a way that sheds light on the here and now from the vantage of the greater mythic scope.

I definitely agree! I think part of the attraction of fan fiction for me is that certain TV shows (I rarely read fanfic based on books just because the difference in authorial voice really throws me off) have become part of my own personal mythology. As such, it's horribly graitfying to find other people who share that same "mythology" and who are creating a dialogue/monologue/whatyouwill with it via LJ or mailing lists. So while Buffy or Angel may not be part of the greater public consciousness of the world, it is a large part of the greater public consciousness among many people whose LJ's I read... it's a little like sharing a secret language.

I think because of that level of community, works that would normally not have been on the same level of myth or fairy tales are elevated to that level because of that shared language. It's also interesting because I think fanfiction (along with, of course, reviews, discussion, and etc.) does create a sort of discussion between the reader of the fanfic and the text itself. I've read fan fiction that has changed my point of view of some characters on Buffy or Angel and made me see parts of the show in a different light by being able to concentrate on a specific theme or image.

From:

msagara.livejournal.com

I definitely agree! I think part of the attraction of fan fiction for me is that certain TV shows (I rarely read fanfic based on books just because the difference in authorial voice really throws me off) have become part of my own personal mythology. As such, it's horribly graitfying to find other people who share that same "mythology" and who are creating a dialogue/monologue/whatyouwill with it via LJ or mailing lists. So while Buffy or Angel may not be part of the greater public consciousness of the world, it is a large part of the greater public consciousness among many people whose LJ's I read... it's a little like sharing a secret language.

I think this is what

stakebait is getting at as well; I just didn't catch it in quite the same way on the first read. My bad. I loved the show, and loved to bitch about the show, but I think much of early Buffy spoke to mythologies that were already present for me. So my reaction is slightly different; it's not better or worse, just different. I can pick up the language, I can talk about the show endlessly -- but it's not settled roots in me in a way that could make it part of my internal landscape.

If I do a riff on Beauty and the Beast, for instance, I can reconfigure it in so many ways it's not recognizeable to a vast majority of readers. Or I can stay close to its roots, and play it out in an entirely different context. I'm playing with what's already there. To do that with Buffy I'd have to be writing something that wasn't Buffy, if that makes any sense. Transfiguring the source wouldn't work in the same way as working with it. Retelling Buffy in an entirely different context wouldn't be Buffy for me.

It's partly because there's so much that's already mythic in the show; elements of Buffy that have already come from elsewhere. Not the character herself -- but she's a hero, worked into a modern context, with modern subtext.

If I retell B&B (the fairy tale, not the show), I can name Beauty anything I want; I can name the Beast anything I want; I can make his castle a penthouse; I can make his curse different; I can make the resolution different in a way that still speaks to the original.

If I retell Buffy, I don't have that leeway. Writing about an adolescent who is the chosen one and who has to come to terms with the responsibility of duty and power is already done all the time; I would have to turn it inside out, but still have it be recognizeable when it's been remade. I'm not sure if I'm stating this clearly -- does this make any sense to you?

From:

oyceter

I think it makes sense to me, especially from the point of view of a creator as opposed to the POV of the reader/consumer. It's much easier to take the structure of Cinderella or B&B or Snow White and transplant them in modern retellings or fantasy novels. Whereas Buffy hasn't quite reached that archetypal status for most people. For me, I think it has, or else I've started seeing so many archetypes in it that a loving boyfriend turned monstrous or a sacrificial suicide/suicidal sacrifice automatically remind me of Buffy.

But yeah, I think re-writing Buffy for the commercial market would be particularly difficult without impinging upon copyright, while fairy tales are more creative commons. And while fanfiction is very far from commercial (at least in most places I've seen), it is very hard to identify with the stories without having the specific story of Buffy in one's head, while a retelling of a fairy tale would be much more resonant without identifying details.

From:

queenalia.livejournal.com

I'm on a storytelling mailing list (people who stand in front of live audiences and tell stories, storytelling), and this is a theme that occasionally crops up-- people will be telling a fractured fairy tale, and suddenly realize that the audience (of any age) doesn't know the original.

It's caused a couple of people to concentrate on the old stories, and avoid the variations, because how can you have parody or satire without the original? It's scary to them/us that no one else is focussing on that.

(And then there's the kids who say, when you're telling Cinderella, "But what about Bippity Boppety Boo?" which either leads to an interesting discussion about the impermanent, fluid nature of the oral tradition, or hysterics on the part of the teller...)

going back to lurking, but i am really interested in this conversation,
alia

From:

msagara.livejournal.com

It's caused a couple of people to concentrate on the old stories, and avoid the variations, because how can you have parody or satire without the original? It's scary to them/us that no one else is focussing on that.

I can understand this; and 100 years from now? our culture myths may very well be derived from television or other sources of mass entertainment -- although I'm not so certain. I know that fairy tales and children's books have often achieved longevity because they're passed from parent (or aunt, or grandparent) to child, down a line (like me and Little Women or Narnia); my early exposure to fairy tales that weren't Disney were the Andrew Lang Fairy Books (blue is my favourite. If anyone is asking).

(And then there's the kids who say, when you're telling Cinderella, "But what about Bippity Boppety Boo?" which either leads to an interesting discussion about the impermanent, fluid nature of the oral tradition, or hysterics on the part of the teller...)

I can see how it could lead to both <wry g>. Also, different cultures have different takes on what constitutes "appropriate for children" entertainment. Some of the old German fairy tales? Really old, and really, really unfriendly -- to children <wry g>. Lots of fingers being lopped off, and lots of children starving or freezing to death as a sort of comeuppance.

I'm wandering <g>.

From:

nagasvoice.livejournal.com

Many of the comments here seem to be from folks who aren't interested in fanfic.
I don't claim to be an expert source, myself, but I have had some reccs to very good writing in fanfic, so I don't bother reading the vast masses of mediocre. The reason that I do read what I have is that I learn things about writing from these folks.
The really good writers pull off some extremely interesting effects in that medium.
It's a slightly different form than regular novels, as one does not step on the toes of fellow fans by going on in boring detail about things that everybody already knows--hair curl, eye color, tone of voice, that sort of thing. For someone used to commercial fiction, the less effective fics are too bare bones on odd things. They frequently skip so many details that unless you've seen the series or the movie, you have no idea what any of the characters actually look like.
Ahh, but in a really good writer's hands, frankly, it doesn't matter anyway. To be good at it, one has to hit the common items with a side light, a new insight, that turn of phrase that really captures something so well it just vibrates in your mind like a violin string.
Also, most of these don't use written source material. There isn't much fic from written sources. Holmes is the only one I can think of with any substantial body of fanfic work at all, and much of that is self-confessedly because of the Mystery TV series and Jeremy Brett's Sherlock. There's occasional cross-overs to print sources, but not many. Nearly all of it is visual, mass media-driven. I can think of a few pieces I've seen which were very funny (an slashy)take-offs of Pratchett/Gaiman's Good Omens.
Unfortunately, I'm not finding the source I wanted for that, tonight. They got the Pratchett/Gaiman tone right, too, IMHO, which is not easy to do.

The good ones also do the historical research, too--many of the stories are not in the current era at all. (Tons of Highlander fic, for instance, is an excuse for a historical romance, even if it is slash.)
Besides the context of the time, to be considered good at fanfic, you really have to preserve the character's tone of voice and turns of phrase, and the structure of the original stories.
It means having a very good ear for the subtleties between different eras of Brit spy/suspense series, for instance.

As an example, this link is one of the more unusual examples I've run across. West Wing stories are not that common, and silly ones even harder to find.
http://home.nc.rr.com/tallulah/index.html
(more links in part 2, sorry to go on so long!)
to part 2

From:

nagasvoice.livejournal.com

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This link below comes from someone who writes a lot of different sorts of stories as if various actors she likes have been dropped into alternature universes. They may look the same, may have many of the same skills and attributes, but the story is so different that you could publish it professionally just by adapting names. She also writes in different story series, posting episodes in overlapping, labeled pieces. Part 1 of one story and part 3 of another may overlap in time in her lj.
In addition, she co-writes with other people, and this link is one of the cooperative series of stories. This one happens to be set in the West (and it's called that) during the nineteenth century, in a cathouse run by a woman with a past. She's given shelter to a guy who was beaten nearly to death--which one reads in an earlier set of posts which were very impressive. I don't think you have to have all the background that exists inthe prior stories, but it does make this ricker, more textured, even more convincing. I don't think I've ever read a more effective abusive-husband scene.
http://www.livejournal.com/community/west__trips/4172.html#cutid1%22

Another comment remarked there isn't any critical supporrt for fanfic. In fact there is rather a lot of critical thought developed about fanfic from within the community; there's been scholarly source books written about it. Many of them are considering it an interaction with the primary source, a conversation with the source material and with fellow fans. This one discusses what slash really is, in the context of het slash, of all things.
http://www.drizzle.com/~gwyneth/morestuff/hetslash.html

I would point you toward <ljuser=stewardess> as one of the better writers as well, but in what's left on her lj, I might not be doing her justice. Because of a fan's really bad plagiarism and her own need to make some money to live on, her best work has been withdrawn from the net. She's going to rewrite it as completely original characters.
Here's her explanation:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/stewardess_lotr/73385.html

Another one of the better, harsher writers:
http://www.twistedchick.org/stories/index.htm
If you ever doubted that handicapped sex could be hot stuff, then I should point out this one among that collection:
http://www.twistedchick.org/stories/shortbread/janus.htm
There's lots more great writers out there, this is what I grabbed in a hurry tonight. For what it's worth, some more sources, mostly slashy:
http://seacouver.slashcity.net/taz/fuse.html
http://seacouver.slashcity.net/elynross/index.html
http://mediafans.org/rachael/
http://www.intimations.org/fanfic/#misc

From:

rosamund.livejournal.com

I've written fanfic for various TV shows and movies, as well as taken part in RPGs.

In fact, taking the part of an unsympathetic character taught me a couple of very useful lessons about "villains".

I think I can understand why an author might not want to read fanfic, or even not have it out there at all. Maybe it changes the characters for them.

As a slash writer myself, perhaps I have an unfair advantage. I know which characters are likely to be slashed and we've talked it over. Maybe it would be different too if they weren't so well-defined. Hell, some of them even have a sense of humour.

Oh, yeah, and then there's the fact that I've done it to my own universe with a couple of alternative path pieces.

I think I'd feel intensely flattered that my stories resonated powerfully enough to inspire a stranger to write their own response.

If any of that made sense, I'll be surprised. It's both far too early and late.

From:

raincrystal.livejournal.com

find it enormously flattering that something about my work speaks strongly enough to some people that they are compelled to write about those elements. I adore my characters -- pretty much all of them -- and I don't, umm, write a lot of sex, and much of the relationship stuff is subtle enough that even my mother missed it.

...This bothers me. You seem to be working off the misconception that all, or even most, fanfic is about sex. But there's a lot of great platonic fanfic out there; it just gets overshadowed by the romance because people like to defend/complain about the pairings they love/hate together, and the Shocking Weirdness of the couples they saw. There's a lot less to defend or complain about in a fic when there isn't a pairing that someone might challenge. So, the romance gets talked about, the platonic stuff (such as where someone reflects on their duties, or remembers the past, or explains some loophole in the work) gets read but not discussed as fanatically.

This leads a lot of people to think "fanfic = sex," or alternately "fanfic = unbelievable slash pairings," neither of which does it justice, I think. I've been writing fanfic since I was eleven years old, I've never written a fanfic romance, and I hesitate to tell people that I write fanfic because they'll be eyeing me and wondering if I'm one of those people who has a "thing" for imagining Harry and Draco getting it on.

From:

msagara.livejournal.com

find it enormously flattering that something about my work speaks strongly enough to some people that they are compelled to write about those elements. I adore my characters -- pretty much all of them -- and I don't, umm, write a lot of sex, and much of the relationship stuff is subtle enough that even my mother missed it.

...This bothers me. You seem to be working off the misconception that all, or even most, fanfic is about sex.

I understand why it would bother you. I should have made it clearer in context: There's very little open space in my universe. My understanding of fanfic is that it's written in the wide open cracks between canonical episodes or in story-structure and events.

The only obvious open space in my West novels -- as has been pointed out by an author who can out themself if they want -- is in the sexual relationships, because there aren't any. Which isn't true, but it isn't textual; it's implied.

So in my case, at the moment, I can't think of what would be wide open enough that others would try to fill in the cracks except that.

I'm aware that not all fanfic is slash. I see a lot more references to slash than I do to non-slash, fwiw, but I'm aware that they're not synonymous.