Fanfic and flying under the radar

[msagara]

stakebait wrote
Been thinking more about this. What makes it [fanfic] not public is the attempt to fly under the radar of the Powers That Be, right? Or at least not actively draw their attention? Though how much that's done varies quite a bit from creator to creator. I know of at least one mailing list, read and posted to by the author, where fanfic is simply labeled "fanfic" so she can avoid reading it, but there's no attempt to pretend that it doesn't exist.

I've been thinking more about it as well. This is less an answer to your question than it started out being, but it is a more methodical examination of my own reaction.


What makes it less public is twofold, for me. Radar is part of it, but not by any means the whole. Let me try to express it. Let me take a whole new post to do it, because I've outrun my word limit. Again.

PART ONE

Fanfic is not a critique, nor is it a review of what exists; fanfic writers are certainly capable of doing book critiques/reviews or movie/tv critiques/reviews, but no one calls those fanfic. Both critique and review consider the text at hand (or the show at hand), assessing what's there, and giving their (hopefully but not always) informed opinion on it. There is a dialogue of sorts between some of these reviewers and the creative person(s) at the other end; there is a dialogue of sorts between some of these reviewers and the fans of the work in question. But if the review has some heat or love at its heart, it's still about the work as a whole. I don't consider this a dialogue in the standard sense; I'm now using dialogue in the sense that you used it originally, so if I stumble in that, bear with me.

In some instances, I think there are parodies or even satires -- but I don't consider those to be fanfic, and this could be because my definition is way the heck too narrow, i.e. I'm ignorant. Parody usually reflects the original work as a whole, and some understanding of the original is necessary in order for the parody to work at all; I consider parody a broad commentary, because that's the point of parody. Well, and also to make fun of the audience reaction. Digression.

Fanfic, rather than being a (theoretically) objective form of that dialogue or response, is much more of an emotional dialogue; it exists first between the reader and what they draw out of the primary work, and second, in the text they create. It explores other possibilities and permutations (if I understand what you've said correctly) that the original work did not -- or hasn't yet. Or never will.

But much of fanfic is essentially fiction, with serial numbers, and its aim is the aim, in many ways, of the original work, because if it didn't have some of that same feel or tone it wouldn't be fanfic. Because of the serial numbers, there is a need to fly under the radar. I would argue that it's that need that allows fanfic to thrive, although it does keep it out of the public eye to a greater or lesser extent. If you don't know anything about it, it's invisible; once you do, it's everywhere. Okay, I really have to stop with the digressions.

Having said that, let's go back to the need to fly under the radar. This is partly necessitated by legal convention, and as the copyright holder, I cannot outright decry it, for a variety of reasons, one being, I have some attachment to my copyright.

What happens under the radar is of less concern to me than what happens above the radar. There are things I would not want my characters to say or do. Obviously, when I'm writing, I have say in this (although, creative process being what it is, not 100% <wry g>). If someone is writing fanfic based on my characters or in my universe, what they want the characters to do is part of their emotional response. And -- beneath the radar -- this is a valid exploration; it's a little like daydreaming in public, which, in many ways, is where the heart of many stories start. The work comes after.

But if you remove the protective layer, which we'll call the radar level, I would feel a lot more ambivalent, because there are ways in which I would not want my characters to be represented to my readers, many of whom still don't own computers (I know, I always find this a bit shocking; it's stranger, to me, than not owning a telephone or a television but I digress, as always). In the public sense -- in the way my vision is present as my vision to the universe, or the small slice that reads my books <wry g>, and speaking with no delusions of grandeur (although I can't speak for other types of delusions), I can clearly state that I want my vision of my creation to be the canonical vision. I realize that's a lot of genetive use there.

Let me sum it up in a less unwieldy fashion: I do not want other writers defining canon in a universe I create.


PART TWO

But part of the difference in my reaction, part of the sense of "public" or "legitimate" stems, in part, from the medium through which the original property is first presented. Joss Whedon approves of fanfic, but he's doing Television, and I bet he'd be a lot less happy if fanfic writers were to get together and produce and air their own version of Buffy. A lot, as in lawsuits and really ugly things, and I don't think he'd be hands-off at that point.

Many of the people who watch the show will never read the licensed spinoffs, and they'll also never read the fanfic. Both the spinoffs and the fanfic fill a smaller role than the original broadcast did. It's accepted that what happens in the textual presentations or the comic books or the fanfic, etc, licensed or not., are not canonical; they can be ignored or changed or overturned at the whim of the licensor. In a sense, the spirit of generosity that allows the fanfic to exist can only be generous, in my view, because of that -- the other works are not canonical. They don't change anything. They don't touch or mark or move the original, and they don't open or close the avenues the original series can move in. The creator feels free to ignore them entirely.

When you're dealing with fanfic based on written work, you're suddenly dealing with the exact same medium, which is why I think more tension exists.

I don't know any writers who hate filksongs inspired by their works. I don't know any writers who hate art inspired by their work. Or costumes. Many would be perfectly happy to have RPGs or Television shows based on their works (if they were paid <g>).

But none of these media are the primary medium for the creator -- the text, in the case of books, is.

Knowing that canon is decided by me (and knowing that some people won't always be happy with the decisions I make) gives me the same comfort zone that someone producing television shows would have. Reviews, critiques-- these don't really change the way people view the original. Are they public? Yes. But in some sense they relate to the canonical work.

They make no attempt to change the work; they can savage it, they can praise it, they can dissect it for meaning -- but they're not there to rework to it; at most, they can shift the way we view what's already there. In this sense, the work is the point of the discourse. And as all writers know, once something is published, it's public, and people can say whatever the want about it. We're prepared for that. That's the sense of "public" I assume when I see the word.

In the case of fanfic, the work is the stepping stone, the foundation, the thing people stand on while they branch out; the anchor to which they tie their own skills, developing their own voices and abilities. At this point in time, one can sort of assume that readers and writers of fanfic have read or watched the originals, so there's a certainty of informed creation, even if the creation is not canon.

But were the fanfic based on novels to be published as novels in their own right -- without any vetting or interference from the original author -- there's no guarantee that new readers would be so informed, and the canonical understanding of a creation that originated elsewhere -- like, say, me -- could shift radically. A book, after all, is a book, and it sits on the shelf, like other books.

And I'm sorry if it makes me sound hideously selfish -- and I'm aware that it probably does -- but the right to set canon is incredibly important to me.

Comments

[msagara.livejournal.com]

Tekno?

Tekno Books. Run by Martin H. Greenberg, and staffed by John Helfers, Denise Little, Larry Segriff, Brittany Koren (whose name I'm probably spelling wrong), and possibly one or two others. They do a lot of different things, but the most visible -- to me, for obvious reasons -- are the anthologies that DAW publishes. They've done a number of anthologies for other publishers as well.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

Disney is attempting to get the copyright extended by another 20 years so as to protect their sole right to earn money off the Mouse. Since he was created by Walt, and Walt has been dead, lo these many years, they are running out of time before it would pass into public domain and they want to prevent that.

My understanding of copyright and trademark and the differences therein is woeful. I would have thought they'd be safe because trademark is theirs. I guess this would be wrong, on my part.

[prettyarbitrary.livejournal.com]

Dear God, no! No one should have the right to earn money off your work without your permission, or act as if it's their right to change it. That's where most fanfic writers draw the line (except for the tiny minority who inevitably show up, act dishonestly, and spoil things for everyone else).

Granted, there are some who write fanfic because they don't like something the author did, and want to pretend to change it. But 1: they almost certainly wouldn't try and claim the right to do so officially, and 2: most fanfic writers are doing it because they love the original work and simply want to revisit it.

I can't imagine how someone would call you selfish for what you said. :)

Re: Keeping things in the same medium

[msagara.livejournal.com]

By and large most fanfic writers can't be arsed to do much more than post it to a list or to the Pit of Voles (tm) (Fanfiction.net) and wait for the feedback to roll in. I don't think the problem of someone writing a story based on a story and selling it is all that common.

I would guess it wasn't (common), but I don't know enough about the community. I do know that it's a fairly tightly knit community (or I infer it at this point <g>), and there's probably a multitude of different opinions within fandom at large.

For the record, the only booklit fanfic I did was for Lynn Flewlling's stuff and went to a few people before she came out against fanfic. Once her opinion was formed (strongly against) I withdrew the piece and it hasn't been anywhere but my harddrive since. I don't get stories from other people's books. I get stories from my head, and from my life and my world.

This makes sense; it's, after all, where mine come from. Let me be clear: I wanted to write a Buffy novel. I started watching television when I was pregnant with my first child; I was so damn sick all the time I couldn't even read (I couldn't focus on the page; it made me throw up). So I lay on the couch for hours at a time, and watched TV. I saw the last 20 minutes of "Angel"; I saw the whole of "When She Was Bad", and I was hooked. I watch almost no television. This was unusual for me.

I understand the very real desire to write about other people's creations. Given how little I knew about fanfic, my first thought was to phone my agent and tell him I wanted to write a Buffy novel <wry g>. But the stories I wanted to tell were the darker ones, and that bent is distinctly mine.

And it isn't consistently that it's a media thing either, to go on a tangent. I adore Babylon 5 but don't write fanfic for it for two reasons. One - I don't really see any 'holes' except outside the arcs that were aired. Two - I don't think I could do it justice so I'm not even going to try.

Buffy was the only thing that had that effect on me, and I'm not sure why. I love Firefly, but I've had no like compulsion. I think it's because part of the Buffy arc is firmly entrenched in a more mythic coming-of-age; the Firefly stuff isn't. And there wasn't enough of it aired for me to have any certain sense of how the characters would settle out.

Shutting up now.

You don't have to, unless you find this tiresome -- I don't know a lot about fanfic, although that's changing my the minute in the last couple of days -- so I'm not taking offense. I may be causing offense, because I'm unfortunately good at that if I'm writing off the top of my head -- but I'm mostly trying to figure out what my views are, and to articulate them; it's a proceses that isn't finished yet.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

No, it doesn't make you sound selfish at all. I don't even think I'm disagreeing with you. I'm not itching for the right to publish my fanfic as a novel -- if I were, I'd be trying to network my way into the licensed spin offs business. I totally agree that it's the right of the creator to set canon.

I have to say that the licensed spin-off is so very, very restrictive I think it would be hard to write for if you've had the freedom to go in any direction you want. I don't think it's easier, fwiw, to write fiction based on other people's work. For me there's so much that can't be said or done, and the fact that very little is allowed to change kind of puts a big damper on my creative drive.

I wouldn't want fanfic to be part of the canon. It would make canon an unknowable mess, branching off from every turning point in all directions, and hence make the future fanfic writer's task impossible.

I laughed at this. I'm thinking, of course, as an original fiction writer -- you're thinking as a fanfic writer. But either way, it would be tangled and impossible to follow. Does fanfic follow its own canon, out of curiosity?

I guess part of what I'm saying is that, to me, published on the Internet or in a zine could be both public enough to partake of the artistic conversation and still different enough from your novels to make the distinction you're talking about intuitively clear, even without the standard disclaimers.

From that perspective, I can see your point.

Actually, I also think two published novels can be that different -- f'rex, the Frank Herbert Dune books versus the Brian Herbert Dune books. But I don't feel strongly enough about that to argue for it.

Let's. Not. Go. There.

Fanfic is not a critique,

Sometimes I think it is -- a critique in fictional form, showing what the reader thinks was missing or wrong, not unlike a traditional parody, except by adding or fixing what the writer thinks is missing instead of exaggerating what is there. Like the Wind Done Gone, which was ruled a parody, but is hardly Bored of the Rings.

I think we're using the word critique in different ways. If I wrote a Buffy story -- no, wait, I did -- there was no intent to critique behind the conception of that story; it was purely filling in space between episodes (but two of my favourites, back to back). I wasn't evaluating the show, I wasn't evaluating the form of the show. I was writing a story. I've written critiques and rants about Buffy, otoh. I don't consider them in the same light. If someone asked me about the fiction, it wouldn't occur to me that it was part of a larger discourse. On the other hand, if someone asked me if the fiction was worth less than the opinion pieces, or more, I'm not sure how I would answer.

Oh all right, I know exactly how I would answer. I would say: in the case of the fiction, it depends on the reader. Writing is only half of the process; being read, the other half. In the case of the opinions: they're mine. They are what they are. They don't depend on the interpretation of a reader for their existence or the spark of life that drove them.

Next rock

[msagara.livejournal.com]

I agree that fanfic is a more emotional dialogue than review -- that's partly why I value it, because one of the things it says that review has trouble with is what emotional reaction the canon produced. I don't know that it's more emotional than parody, or just a different range of emotions, though I suppose mockery is inherently more distancing than love.

This is another point of interest that causes me to stop and think a bit more carefully. It hadn't occurred to me (because, as I've said elsewhere, I don't read fanfic) to look at it in those terms. I'll read usenet newsgroups, and I can pretty much glean what the emotional reaction is based on the comments/diatribes there -- but this is a more subtle take, and possibly a more complete one. It seems to be largely a single gender take, as well. Or am I wrong, in that?

I consider mockery more distancing than love; affectionate mockery is possible, but it's usually twined with something more substantial in terms of story.

property is first presented. Joss Whedon approves of fanfic, but he's doing Television, and I bet he'd be a lot less happy if fanfic writers were to get together and produce and air their own version of Buffy.

People do make fan videos, mostly by reediting footage. I don't know how Joss feels about it. Lucas Arts had a contest for Star Wars fanvids, though, so I don't think objection is a universal reaction to work in the same medium.

This is true enough -- but those aren't shown in the same context. They're not shown in the theatres; they're not racked with the DVDs. In fact, in the Lucas Arts case, the parallel between book and etext and movie and fanvid might be closer.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

I agree that fanfic is a more emotional dialogue than review -- that's partly why I value it, because one of the things it says that review has trouble with is what emotional reaction the canon produced. I don't know that it's more emotional than parody, or just a different range of emotions, though I suppose mockery is inherently more distancing than love.

This is another point of interest that causes me to stop and think a bit more carefully. It hadn't occurred to me (because, as I've said elsewhere, I don't read fanfic) to look at it in those terms. I'll read usenet newsgroups, and I can pretty much glean what the emotional reaction is based on the comments/diatribes there -- but this is a more subtle take, and possibly a more complete one. It seems to be largely a single gender take, as well. Or am I wrong, in that?

I consider mockery more distancing than love; affectionate mockery is possible, but it's usually twined with something more substantial in terms of story.

property is first presented. Joss Whedon approves of fanfic, but he's doing Television, and I bet he'd be a lot less happy if fanfic writers were to get together and produce and air their own version of Buffy.

People do make fan videos, mostly by reediting footage. I don't know how Joss feels about it. Lucas Arts had a contest for Star Wars fanvids, though, so I don't think objection is a universal reaction to work in the same medium.

This is true enough -- but those aren't shown in the same context. They're not shown in the theatres; they're not racked with the DVDs. In fact, in the Lucas Arts case, the parallel between book and etext and movie and fanvid might be closer.

[zhaneel69.livejournal.com]

Is there a website for Tekno books? Google the oracle is being strangely lacking.

Zhaneel

[necessaryspace.livejournal.com]

** number of shortcuts that mediocre writers take (in fanfic especially** true. I was thinking of those because it is difficult to find -- at least, for me -- good fanfic. One that follows the three criteria you listed.

** I didn't mean to make you wince. Seriously** It's okay. I didn't physically wince, if that makes you feel better. =)

Re: Keeping things in the same medium

[jamie]

At the risk of drawing assumptions:
I would guess it wasn't (common), but I don't know enough about the community. I do know that it's a fairly tightly knit community (or I infer it at this point ), and there's probably a multitude of different opinions within fandom at large.

In the same way that sci-fi fans are a 'tightly knit community'. And I do mean that literally. From the ones that go to cons that you see over and over, to the ones that seem to pop up sooner or later in the different online communities to the ones you come across in 'the rest of the world'. There are all the cliques (with the positive and negative connotations) that there are elsewhere in fandom. It does have a rather select set of vocabulary (pairings acronyms, slash, gen, chan, OTP, h/c, smarm, 'shipper) that can be confusing to the 'outsider' and gives the illusion of community.

I haven't found it any more or any less tightly knit than any other group of people bound by a common interest, like say the SCA.

But the stories I wanted to tell were the darker ones, and that bent is distinctly mine.

And that is what you see happen over and over again in fan derived fiction. They are taking the canon material and putting their own 'bent' on it. But you made that point already. :) When I write fan-fiction it tends to be along the lines of 'something I want to see in the canon material that I know I never will'. It's wish-fulfillment. When I write my original stuff it's because I can't get it out of my head. YMMV of course.

I haven't taken any offense but I do know that I have a tendency to talk and answer every comment until, in retrospect, I wish I had shut up. ;-)

[msagara.livejournal.com]

It would just be nice to think that I could put my real name on my writing and not risk a law suit for it, and not worry that in this very discussion I'm breaking the ettiquette of fannish self-preservation by indicating to some PTB that my journal is a place to start looking for this stuff.

This makes sense. I write under two or three names -- Michelle West, Michelle Sagara, and Michelle Sagara West (the latter not on purpose, but it happens anyway <wry g>). I would not, however, mind writing under a different name again -- I kind of want the stories to be written, and to be out there; my name is sort of an afterthought. If that makes sense.

This isn't in any way meant to diminish the desire to be associated with your own work; it is work; I can't imagine that it's hugely less work than the work I do. Well, okay, SUN SWORD was 420,000 words long (the last of six volumes on its own, that is), but in principle.

Oh, I see. They relate to it as is. But parody does change it, while still relating to the original. This is why, to my mind, fanfic *is* parody -- albeit the unfunny kind, like the Wind Done Gone.

I don't consider most fanfic to be done with an intent to poke fun, which I generally consider parody to be. Sometimes the "fun" is just cruel, but there. The changes made are changes that are recognizeable riffs on what's there. I don't consider the emotional intent of parody to be the emotional intent of most fanfic -- but I don't read fanfic, so I'm making base assumptions that could be entirely wrong, wrong, wrong. Sadly, it would not be the first time I've been wrong.

In the case of fanfic, the work is the stepping stone, the foundation, the thing people stand on while they branch out; the anchor to which they tie their own skills, developing their own voices and abilities.

*nodsnods* Yes, I agree completely. But I guess, to me, that's part of why I used the term artistic conversation -- not just the analysis of a particular work, but the way one work inspires the next work inspires the next work, in agreement or in rebuttal, or some of each.

Ah! Got it. Literary dialogue! The light dawns. I have, in the words of Pratchett, a mental sunrise. Where each particular fandom is a microcosm of the larger literary tradition.

Some of my favorite pieces of art are reworkings of other pieces of art -- Grendel, Till We Have Faces, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, Wicked, etc. A lot of those originals are in the public domain, of course. And some of the others use other's characters in ways that the courts have, in the past, allowed. But it's getting harder and harder to do that.

Part of the reason these work so well, though, is that those works are widely enough known that there's a resonance; the work comes as a revelation that's almost mythic or archetypal in force. It's not a literary dialogue, but a dialogue with our past, with our possible naivete, with what we've bought into at other times.

Fifty years from now, if Buffy were part of the collective cultural psyche, it would be possible -- I think -- to have that same overarching effect. I know that it wouldn't be possible for it to have that effect on me at the moment, because Buffy is of this moment; the time for turning that over, for seeing what lies underneath and is relevant to a different generation with different myths and experiences, isn't yet; she's ours.

No conclusion to come to, I'm just noodling along as best I can.

Me too. The point about public domain is a good one -- but for me, I see the later works working because the note of cultural relevance, the shift of perspective, is in part generational.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

Sure - and that's where you get into the one easily visible advantage of fan-produced fiction. A built in audience. You'll get feedback across the spectrum telling you how well you did or didn't get it. ;-) Sometimes from the same person.

Messy, that.

I was just about to say this. And I don't read fanfic, but I can well imagine that you'll get flamed if you get the tone of the characters wrong. Or the voice. I can also imagine the type of arguments that occur if something is on the bubble, as it were <wry g>.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

Is there a website for Tekno books? Google the oracle is being strangely lacking.

If I were a betting person, I would bet against it. It's not a publisher; it's a quasi-packager, but without the bad bits. Really, it's Marty, Denise, John & Larry, with a couple of newer people I haven't met yet; they edit stuff, put it together, and submit it.

[zhaneel69.livejournal.com]

Gotcha. Figured as much, but thought I'd inquire.

Zhaneel

/me stops trying to subtly find out where more market calls, etc. are being made.

Re: Keeping things in the same medium

[msagara.livejournal.com]

Your point about "close knit" is well-taken; thanks.

When I write fan-fiction it tends to be along the lines of 'something I want to see in the canon material that I know I never will'. It's wish-fulfillment. When I write my original stuff it's because I can't get it out of my head. YMMV of course.

Does vary, in this case <g>. I wanted to write a Buffy novel so that I could stop thinking about Buffy. It was driving me nuts. Not that that's a great distance, mind -- but it was eating my imagination time. I like to blame it on being pregnant. But I also like to be honest <g>.

I haven't taken any offense but I do know that I have a tendency to talk and answer every comment until, in retrospect, I wish I had shut up. ;-)

Me too! And you also work in a speciality SF store -- a woman entirely after my own heart <g>.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

Oh, oh, oh. Sorry, I missed that part. Not being subtle, I invariably miss subtlety. They don't make market calls. They invite. For the most part. There are two types of anthologies. Those edited by the editors in house, and those co-edited.

Misty's anthologies are done this way: They handle all the paperwork and payments, etc.; she handles the edits and story approvals. When Pamela Sargent did the CONQUEROR FANTASTIC anthology, it was the same: She was responsible for all submissions -- so they went to her directly -- and all editing; they were responsible for all the paperwork, payments, contracts, etc.

There is no specific call; each anthology differs, depending on who the editor is. When Mike Resnick was doing a lot more anthologies than he does now, he was entirely responsible for who wrote for him as well.

[dancinghorse.livejournal.com]

The Valdemar anthologies were invitation-only. I did a story for the second one (didn't have time for the first one). Since as a pro writer I predate Misty, I can certify that I never came from her fandom. She's a good person and her world is fun to play in.

Have also done Witch World (Norton) and War World (Pournelle)--by invitation also. Ended up creating some Falconer canon for Witch World, but that was Andre's choice and I declined to turn the story into a novel--no room in the schedule.

Some authors like to share. But many of those want that sharing to be on their terms.

As far as I know I've never been "fan-fic-ed," probably because the style is too distinctive. I couldn't even hide it under a pseudonym. Though I have had plots and characters ripped off, sometimes blatantly as in "Thanks for doing all the research and plotting! My book is ever so much easier because of it!"

[matociquala.livejournal.com]

I may have missed something somewhere (probably did), but where is the fanfiction that is being published in a form that could be mistaken for a quote real unquote book?

Or is this a hypothetical?

And I agree wholeheartedly; if somebody is making money off my work, call me a capitalist swine, but I want a cut, please.

Cats gotta eat.

[andpuff.livejournal.com]

You do find yourself in the most interesting places, don't you? *g*

For my part, you (this would be the general 'you' as opposed to the rather specific 'you' in the previous sentence) may write fanfic about my stuff with my blessing as long as you reap no commercial benefit and you don't suggest I read it. (And, as it happens, no ever has -- suggested I read it, that is. Although there was some discussion years ago about THE FIRE'S STONE being thinly disguised Pretender's slash. Which it wasn't because I'd never seen an episode of THE PRETENDERS. Still haven't. But I digress....) If you do artwork, poetry, or filk... different story. Different medium and I consider it a reflection rather than an extension of the original work.

I think opinions are generally more flexible on media based fanfic because the source material is already seen as having been produced by a committee. For every television episode, multiple people have a hand in writing it (even when there's only a single name in the credits) then the director interprets, then the actors, then the editor, then the music director. (set decorator, props, makeup, carpenters, lights, craft services... Okay, maybe not craft services but I'd argue that a well-time coffee could change the energy in a scene.) Ownership isn't particularly clear cut (in a creative rather than a legal sense where it's entirely clear cut) and fanfic becomes just another layer.

In text, there are only two people involved. I think sometimes fanfic is seen as something that comes between the writer and the reader.

And I think I'll quit before I actually type out the analogy that just popped into my head... *g*

Besides, the game's about to start.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

Glad to have made you laugh. I've never finished anything long enough to worry about this from the original fiction writer's point of view -- even the unfinished stuff is all stand-alones, at this point, where what is canon and what isn't feels less threatened to me, because by the time anyone sees the book I'll be done with my part.

*nodsnodsnods* to the licensed ones being restrictive -- I really admire people like kradical and suricattus who can take them on and do them well, but between what they'll let you do and the incredible speed you have to turn it around at... not my cuppa at all.

No, fanfic doesn't follow its own canon as a general rule. We all start from the official canon and go off in our own directions.

There are exceptions -- a series that branches from canon at a particular point will take its own preceeding stories as canon from there, or the very occasional story written as fanfic of another fanfic. Once one of my Buffy co-writers and I took a friend's Angel series as the equivilent of Angel the show to our Buffy the show, so her series was canon for us and vice versa.

And there's something called "fanon", which is stuff that never appeared in canon but has become common in fanfics -- a particular character background or nickname, for example. But it's generally used as pejorative -- considered lazy writing, the equivilent of using stereotypes instead of creating characters -- unless the person is doing something really different with it.

If I wrote a Buffy story -- no, wait, I did -- there was no intent to critique behind the conception of that story; it was purely filling in space between episodes (but two of my favourites, back to back).

Is it up somewhere? May I read it? :)

I wasn't evaluating the show, I wasn't evaluating the form of the show. I was writing a story.

That makes sense, and I think it's the most common form of fanfiction. But there's definitely a category of fix it fic, or fanwank fic, which is the "they screwed something up, from my perspective, and I'm going to rewrite it into something I'm happy with." It's not just a critique, but it starts there.

If someone asked me about the fiction, it wouldn't occur to me that it was part of a larger discourse.

Interesting. Maybe the difference is that I'm writing fanfic in a community context? The same people whose critiques I read, and who read mine, are reading my fic, making requests, I'm reading their fic, the rants turn into debates turn into story ideas turn into rants based on disagreeing with the character interpretations shown in the story etc. They really do all flow one into the other, so it feels like one conversation to me.

Whereas the two book fics I've written were more in isolation. One was a response to a request, but there wasn't the back and forth.

They don't depend on the interpretation of a reader for their existence or the spark of life that drove them.

I get that.

Should I be apologizing for spamming your journal, BTW? I'm really enjoying this discussion, but when all six of my comment notifications are from you I have to wonder if that means I'm monopolizing you too much.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

I'll read usenet newsgroups, and I can pretty much glean what the emotional reaction is based on the comments/diatribes there -- but this is a more subtle take, and possibly a more complete one. It seems to be largely a single gender take, as well. Or am I wrong, in that?

I think it's mostly female. But the fanfic writing community I move in is mostly female -- to the extent that just a few days ago one of the rare men started an LJ community so the guys could find each other. I don't think I really know enough guys who are into this to say.

I consider mockery more distancing than love; affectionate mockery is possible, but it's usually twined with something more substantial in terms of story.

*nodsnodsnods*

This is true enough -- but those aren't shown in the same context. They're not shown in the theatres; they're not racked with the DVDs. In fact, in the Lucas Arts case, the parallel between book and etext and movie and fanvid might be closer.

That makes sense. So I'm curious, if it's not a book, and not sold in bookstores, but is still text (etext or zine) is that enough distance? Or is the fact that the medium is the same still problematic if the distribution and visual cues are different? Or should I not have lumped etext and zine together?

[mmarques.livejournal.com]

I have some experience with copyright and trademark, from my work as a technical writer at companies that protect both.

Copyright is the right to copy your work, either verbatim or as a changed but recognizable work. For example, someone cannot copy the opening chapter of your book and include it in a book of "Great Fantasy Opening Chapters" without your permission (which would usually require payment from the person who wants to copy your work).

Copyright, in the medium of writing, is protecting how you have put these words together and expressed your opinions, but it does not protect the invidual names you chose. If someone likes the names of one of your characters or places and wants to use that name, I do not believe you would be protected by copyright.

Trademark is used to protect terms (names for products, companies, etc) for use within a specific domain. For example, Tylenol is a trademark of The Tylenol Coroporation (yes, this is a real example, and I know that it's a circular definition). It is probably limited to medication (meaning I could not manufacture some pill and call it Tylenol Happy Pill), but it's also possible that there is broader protection (which would determine whether I can see a Tylenol sofa or name a character in my book Tylenol).

Trademark and copyright have different rules as to how you establish copyright/trademark, and how long it applies.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

If I wrote a Buffy story -- no, wait, I did

Is it up somewhere? May I read it? :)

It's in the book "What I Did on my Summer Vacation" (I think that's the title), title of "Dust"; I have the next-to-last or possibly last version of it in Word format which I can email to you if you want. It's kind of 10K words.

If someone asked me about the fiction, it wouldn't occur to me that it was part of a larger discourse.

Interesting. Maybe the difference is that I'm writing fanfic in a community context? The same people whose critiques I read, and who read mine, are reading my fic, making requests, I'm reading their fic, the rants turn into debates turn into story ideas turn into rants based on disagreeing with the character interpretations shown in the story etc. They really do all flow one into the other, so it feels like one conversation to me.

I think this is probably the difference. Although there is a loose community of writers, we're nowhere near that tightly knit; we're likely to kvetch about our daily struggles, our moments of insanity, our bad review days, our lack of money, etc., etc., than we are to actually talk about our work. In many cases, the people I spend the most time with in the writing community haven't reliably read any of my work, or vice versa. There are two authors who, in a pinch, I'll send actual text -- but it's in a pinch, as in, stuck-so-stuck and the deadline is looming like an oncoming train. And yes, I'm on the tracks.

Whereas the two book fics I've written were more in isolation. One was a response to a request, but there wasn't the back and forth.

Was the request from an individual or from a community? I assume that, with the exception of Harry Potter, the fandoms for Television/movies are larger or easier to find.

Should I be apologizing for spamming your journal, BTW? I'm really enjoying this discussion, but when all six of my comment notifications are from you I have to wonder if that means I'm monopolizing you too much.

Don't apologize to me <g>. If you want to apologize to anyone else who happens to be reading this (and I'm assuming if it's making their eyes glaze over, they aren't anymore) that's fine, but I'm enjoying it, but am also finding it informative, and the two in combination are increasingly rare. Because I'm an older curmudgeon.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

That makes sense. So I'm curious, if it's not a book, and not sold in bookstores, but is still text (etext or zine) is that enough distance? Or is the fact that the medium is the same still problematic if the distribution and visual cues are different? Or should I not have lumped etext and zine together?

For me? It's enough of a distance, which is why I don't mind and can be flattered or feel flattered; there is no sense in which I'm required to either curse or bless or edit. I can understand why you'd want to attach your name to the work, and I also -- were it my universe -- wouldn't mind that, either.

I'm continuing to mull over the idea of a writing form that exists almost, but not quite, as a communial act of imagination or property. I can't think of a writer, offhand, who could write original material that way -- but this is possibly a function of the process, i.e. only people who are capable of writing in a vaccuum push themselves through from start to finish. People who require community require something that, at least previous to this, didn't exist as part of the publication process.

Although on-line workshops, etc., are making the necessity to do that much less onerous, if you can work within that framework.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

I may have missed something somewhere (probably did), but where is the fanfiction that is being published in a form that could be mistaken for a quote real unquote book?

Or is this a hypothetical?

This is entirely hypothetical -- part of the discussion of what might happen were fanfic above the radar rather below it. No starving the cat here <g>.