Fanfic and flying under the radar

[msagara]

stakebait wrote
Been thinking more about this. What makes it [fanfic] not public is the attempt to fly under the radar of the Powers That Be, right? Or at least not actively draw their attention? Though how much that's done varies quite a bit from creator to creator. I know of at least one mailing list, read and posted to by the author, where fanfic is simply labeled "fanfic" so she can avoid reading it, but there's no attempt to pretend that it doesn't exist.

I've been thinking more about it as well. This is less an answer to your question than it started out being, but it is a more methodical examination of my own reaction.


What makes it less public is twofold, for me. Radar is part of it, but not by any means the whole. Let me try to express it. Let me take a whole new post to do it, because I've outrun my word limit. Again.

PART ONE

Fanfic is not a critique, nor is it a review of what exists; fanfic writers are certainly capable of doing book critiques/reviews or movie/tv critiques/reviews, but no one calls those fanfic. Both critique and review consider the text at hand (or the show at hand), assessing what's there, and giving their (hopefully but not always) informed opinion on it. There is a dialogue of sorts between some of these reviewers and the creative person(s) at the other end; there is a dialogue of sorts between some of these reviewers and the fans of the work in question. But if the review has some heat or love at its heart, it's still about the work as a whole. I don't consider this a dialogue in the standard sense; I'm now using dialogue in the sense that you used it originally, so if I stumble in that, bear with me.

In some instances, I think there are parodies or even satires -- but I don't consider those to be fanfic, and this could be because my definition is way the heck too narrow, i.e. I'm ignorant. Parody usually reflects the original work as a whole, and some understanding of the original is necessary in order for the parody to work at all; I consider parody a broad commentary, because that's the point of parody. Well, and also to make fun of the audience reaction. Digression.

Fanfic, rather than being a (theoretically) objective form of that dialogue or response, is much more of an emotional dialogue; it exists first between the reader and what they draw out of the primary work, and second, in the text they create. It explores other possibilities and permutations (if I understand what you've said correctly) that the original work did not -- or hasn't yet. Or never will.

But much of fanfic is essentially fiction, with serial numbers, and its aim is the aim, in many ways, of the original work, because if it didn't have some of that same feel or tone it wouldn't be fanfic. Because of the serial numbers, there is a need to fly under the radar. I would argue that it's that need that allows fanfic to thrive, although it does keep it out of the public eye to a greater or lesser extent. If you don't know anything about it, it's invisible; once you do, it's everywhere. Okay, I really have to stop with the digressions.

Having said that, let's go back to the need to fly under the radar. This is partly necessitated by legal convention, and as the copyright holder, I cannot outright decry it, for a variety of reasons, one being, I have some attachment to my copyright.

What happens under the radar is of less concern to me than what happens above the radar. There are things I would not want my characters to say or do. Obviously, when I'm writing, I have say in this (although, creative process being what it is, not 100% <wry g>). If someone is writing fanfic based on my characters or in my universe, what they want the characters to do is part of their emotional response. And -- beneath the radar -- this is a valid exploration; it's a little like daydreaming in public, which, in many ways, is where the heart of many stories start. The work comes after.

But if you remove the protective layer, which we'll call the radar level, I would feel a lot more ambivalent, because there are ways in which I would not want my characters to be represented to my readers, many of whom still don't own computers (I know, I always find this a bit shocking; it's stranger, to me, than not owning a telephone or a television but I digress, as always). In the public sense -- in the way my vision is present as my vision to the universe, or the small slice that reads my books <wry g>, and speaking with no delusions of grandeur (although I can't speak for other types of delusions), I can clearly state that I want my vision of my creation to be the canonical vision. I realize that's a lot of genetive use there.

Let me sum it up in a less unwieldy fashion: I do not want other writers defining canon in a universe I create.


PART TWO

But part of the difference in my reaction, part of the sense of "public" or "legitimate" stems, in part, from the medium through which the original property is first presented. Joss Whedon approves of fanfic, but he's doing Television, and I bet he'd be a lot less happy if fanfic writers were to get together and produce and air their own version of Buffy. A lot, as in lawsuits and really ugly things, and I don't think he'd be hands-off at that point.

Many of the people who watch the show will never read the licensed spinoffs, and they'll also never read the fanfic. Both the spinoffs and the fanfic fill a smaller role than the original broadcast did. It's accepted that what happens in the textual presentations or the comic books or the fanfic, etc, licensed or not., are not canonical; they can be ignored or changed or overturned at the whim of the licensor. In a sense, the spirit of generosity that allows the fanfic to exist can only be generous, in my view, because of that -- the other works are not canonical. They don't change anything. They don't touch or mark or move the original, and they don't open or close the avenues the original series can move in. The creator feels free to ignore them entirely.

When you're dealing with fanfic based on written work, you're suddenly dealing with the exact same medium, which is why I think more tension exists.

I don't know any writers who hate filksongs inspired by their works. I don't know any writers who hate art inspired by their work. Or costumes. Many would be perfectly happy to have RPGs or Television shows based on their works (if they were paid <g>).

But none of these media are the primary medium for the creator -- the text, in the case of books, is.

Knowing that canon is decided by me (and knowing that some people won't always be happy with the decisions I make) gives me the same comfort zone that someone producing television shows would have. Reviews, critiques-- these don't really change the way people view the original. Are they public? Yes. But in some sense they relate to the canonical work.

They make no attempt to change the work; they can savage it, they can praise it, they can dissect it for meaning -- but they're not there to rework to it; at most, they can shift the way we view what's already there. In this sense, the work is the point of the discourse. And as all writers know, once something is published, it's public, and people can say whatever the want about it. We're prepared for that. That's the sense of "public" I assume when I see the word.

In the case of fanfic, the work is the stepping stone, the foundation, the thing people stand on while they branch out; the anchor to which they tie their own skills, developing their own voices and abilities. At this point in time, one can sort of assume that readers and writers of fanfic have read or watched the originals, so there's a certainty of informed creation, even if the creation is not canon.

But were the fanfic based on novels to be published as novels in their own right -- without any vetting or interference from the original author -- there's no guarantee that new readers would be so informed, and the canonical understanding of a creation that originated elsewhere -- like, say, me -- could shift radically. A book, after all, is a book, and it sits on the shelf, like other books.

And I'm sorry if it makes me sound hideously selfish -- and I'm aware that it probably does -- but the right to set canon is incredibly important to me.

Comments

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

No, it doesn't make you sound selfish at all. I don't even think I'm disagreeing with you. I'm not itching for the right to publish my fanfic as a novel -- if I were, I'd be trying to network my way into the licensed spin offs business. I totally agree that it's the right of the creator to set canon.

I wouldn't want fanfic to be part of the canon. It would make canon an unknowable mess, branching off from every turning point in all directions, and hence make the future fanfic writer's task impossible.

I guess part of what I'm saying is that, to me, published on the Internet or in a zine could be both public enough to partake of the artistic conversation and still different enough from your novels to make the distinction you're talking about intuitively clear, even without the standard disclaimers.

Actually, I also think two published novels can be that different -- f'rex, the Frank Herbert Dune books versus the Brian Herbert Dune books. But I don't feel strongly enough about that to argue for it.

Fanfic is not a critique,

Sometimes I think it is -- a critique in fictional form, showing what the reader thinks was missing or wrong, not unlike a traditional parody, except by adding or fixing what the writer thinks is missing instead of exaggerating what is there. Like the Wind Done Gone, which was ruled a parody, but is hardly Bored of the Rings.

Not that I think all fanfic, or even most, falls into this category. But I do think it exists.

But if the review has some heat or love at its heart, it's still about the work as a whole.

some understanding of the original is necessary in order for the parody to work at all;

Some understanding of the original is necessary for fanfic to work too. In my experience, more understanding of the original is needed for fanfic than for review (which can focus on small or beside the point aspects) or for classic parody, because it's quite easy to mock the surface without understanding the substance.

Of course, quite a lot of fanfic does not work, and that may very well be because the writer doesn't understand the work, or is letting her wishes distort that understanding -- or just isn't a very good writer. But those things are true of parody and reviews as well. I'm not quite sure I'm getting the distinction that "the work as a whole" is meant to be making.

I agree that fanfic is a more emotional dialogue than review -- that's partly why I value it, because one of the things it says that review has trouble with is what emotional reaction the canon produced. I don't know that it's more emotional than parody, or just a different range of emotions, though I suppose mockery is inherently more distancing than love.

It explores other possibilities and permutations (if I understand what you've said correctly) that the original work did not -- or hasn't yet. Or never will.

Often. Other kinds try to recreate as close to canon as possible. But it has to be somewhat different, or it's just plagiarism.

one being, I have some attachment to my copyright.

*nodsnodsnods* Of course you do. I'm hoping, if/when I'm able to publish a novel, to do so under a Creative Commons license which would allow noncommercial derivative works with attribution and retain the rest of my rights.

Digression: I only know of one first novelist (Cory Doctorow) who published under a Creative Commons license, so I don't know how possible that would be to negotiate. And right now CC either allows derivative works only, but can be for profit, or nonprofit only, but including verbatim copying as well as derivative works. I did ask for a nonprofit sampling only license when they were developing it, but it didn't happen.) End digression.

property is first presented. Joss Whedon approves of fanfic, but he's doing Television, and I bet he'd be a lot less happy if fanfic writers were to get together and produce and air their own version of Buffy.

People do make fan videos, mostly by reediting footage. I don't know how Joss feels about it. Lucas Arts had a contest for Star Wars fanvids, though, so I don't think objection is a universal reaction to work in the same medium.

continued in next comment

[zhaneel69.livejournal.com]

I'm not quite sure I'm getting the distinction that "the work as a whole" is meant to be making.

Speaking for me [not Michelle]:

The review doesn't focus [generally] on one scene or one character or one plot line. It focuses on the entire book.

FanFic, IME, tends to take a very narrow plot-line or character. Maybe my experience is to the contrary, but that is what I've seen.

Frex:

An SG-1 fanfic that expands on the 100 days episode. So it is confined to that one episode, not the series as a whole

A short story in Terre d'Angel about one of Phedra's single-time clients. That story is about the client and doesn't span the triology.

While I agree that for a fanfic to work, one has to have read majority of the body of work to have the underpinning assumptions down, the story itself is generally a pretty narrow topic.

Zhaneel

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

Oh, I see. Thanks. I guess I see more reviews like that -- I'm in a fannish community where people routinely review each individual episode of a TV show, and sometimes just one aspect of an episode, as a complete essay unto itself. One of my favorite examples was on, I kid you not, the symbolism of shirt color.

So I totally get how fanfic can be narrowly focused even though it has the whole work as backdrop, but I don't see that as making it different from the kind of critique that a fan without a space limitation writes for other fans.

[cofax7]

The problem, I find, with talking about fic is that no generalization goes unchallenged. *g*

While I agree that for a fanfic to work, one has to have read majority of the body of work to have the underpinning assumptions down, the story itself is generally a pretty narrow topic.

I'd say that there's plenty of fic that addresses the whole of the source product, either by reinvisioning it (Kodiakke Max's In the Company of Ghosts, which spins four seasons of Farscape radically off its axis), by broadening its scope (Peg and Macedon's Talking Stick Stories set in the Voyager universe), or producing a classic "episode" of the show in written form (any one of dozens of X-Files casefiles written by people like Jill Selby or Nascent).

Certainly the bulk of fic, and the easiest to write, is the stuff that spins easily off a single moment, focusing on a single character or pairing. But it is possible to write fiction that handles the characters and the situations of the source product in as even-handed a manner as the producers do. It's just harder.

Just my $.02, of course.

[zhaneel69.livejournal.com]

Hence why I post the disclaimer that this was in my experience and may well have been wrong.

Certainly the bulk of fic, and the easiest to write, is the stuff that spins easily off a single moment, focusing on a single character or pairing. But it is possible to write fiction that handles the characters and the situations of the source product in as even-handed a manner as the producers do. It's just harder.

To me, this means that my statement about "generally" was still correct. The bulk = majority = generally. QED. Saying that there are a few examples to the contrary means that they are exceptions. And generally != always.

That's me being picky.

I'm glad to know there is well thought out fanfic that redefines the original work. However, at what point does that re-invisioning process become so different from the original cannon that one should consider it more of a parody/alternate reality rather than fanfic?

Zhaneel

[cofax7]

However, at what point does that re-invisioning process become so different from the original cannon that one should consider it more of a parody/alternate reality rather than fanfic?

Ah, well, there's a school of thought that all fanfic is alternate reality. It's not on your television screen between 8 and 9 pm on Wednesdays, therefore it's not canonical, therefore it's AU (alternate universe).

However most of the time what happens is that stories that really challenge the underlying premises of the show are labelled AU. Something like Tauvo Crais being brought onto Moya in the pilot of Farscape instead of Aeryn Sun; Benton Fraser being born a woman instead of a man (DueSouth); Scully never joining the FBI at all.

You can go even farther AU, of course, and write a story in which the recognizeable personalities are living in, say, 13th-Century Wales. (I'm not much fond of those, since part of the appeal of the fic is the characters' personal histories. But people do write them.) Those last ones, where the characters' personal histories are changed, are the ones that for me fall outside the realm of fanfiction, because without either the framework of the basic premise or the specific personal history established by canon what you have is an original novel whose characters physically resemble the actors but not much else is recognizable.

However to answer your question, even in those circumstances, the writer is generally relying on the reader's knowledge and familiarity with the source canon to make her point. The emotional responses and the logical connections often require the reader to know what was said or done in canon. The amount of this riffing or cross-referencing, of course, depends on the writer and the story.

(Similar to, say, a mainstream novel about a family squabbling about an inheritance in which one of three sisters is named Cordelia. That reference to King Lear casts a shadow and a certain level of understanding over the entire story, even if the characters themselves never acknowledge it.)

So, to get back to your question, when the story becomes alternate reality depends who you ask. Some stories are obviously alternate reality (Mulder is a girl!); some are AU because they start at a set point in canon and spin off into their own examination of what might have happened (Buffy never comes back from the dead after Prophecy Girl); some are completely wacky (like the Professionals stories in which the characters are, well, Faeries).

Other than that, the dividing line is very blurry. It depends on the specific community in question. There are even people who say that all slash is AU if there's no indication of same-sex preferences established in canon. Thankfully, this is not a commonly-held belief. *grin*

Sorry to go on so long, but it's an interesting question.

[zhaneel69.livejournal.com]

Akin to msagara, I don't mind long responses. Heck, I like 'em. So as long as she doesn't mind us rambling in her journal, I'm all for it. If she does, I'll move discussion to my journal.

Anyhow, thanks for the long answer. I don't know a lot about FanFic [obviously] so I enjoy learning.

Zhaneel

[msagara.livejournal.com]

No, it doesn't make you sound selfish at all. I don't even think I'm disagreeing with you. I'm not itching for the right to publish my fanfic as a novel -- if I were, I'd be trying to network my way into the licensed spin offs business. I totally agree that it's the right of the creator to set canon.

I have to say that the licensed spin-off is so very, very restrictive I think it would be hard to write for if you've had the freedom to go in any direction you want. I don't think it's easier, fwiw, to write fiction based on other people's work. For me there's so much that can't be said or done, and the fact that very little is allowed to change kind of puts a big damper on my creative drive.

I wouldn't want fanfic to be part of the canon. It would make canon an unknowable mess, branching off from every turning point in all directions, and hence make the future fanfic writer's task impossible.

I laughed at this. I'm thinking, of course, as an original fiction writer -- you're thinking as a fanfic writer. But either way, it would be tangled and impossible to follow. Does fanfic follow its own canon, out of curiosity?

I guess part of what I'm saying is that, to me, published on the Internet or in a zine could be both public enough to partake of the artistic conversation and still different enough from your novels to make the distinction you're talking about intuitively clear, even without the standard disclaimers.

From that perspective, I can see your point.

Actually, I also think two published novels can be that different -- f'rex, the Frank Herbert Dune books versus the Brian Herbert Dune books. But I don't feel strongly enough about that to argue for it.

Let's. Not. Go. There.

Fanfic is not a critique,

Sometimes I think it is -- a critique in fictional form, showing what the reader thinks was missing or wrong, not unlike a traditional parody, except by adding or fixing what the writer thinks is missing instead of exaggerating what is there. Like the Wind Done Gone, which was ruled a parody, but is hardly Bored of the Rings.

I think we're using the word critique in different ways. If I wrote a Buffy story -- no, wait, I did -- there was no intent to critique behind the conception of that story; it was purely filling in space between episodes (but two of my favourites, back to back). I wasn't evaluating the show, I wasn't evaluating the form of the show. I was writing a story. I've written critiques and rants about Buffy, otoh. I don't consider them in the same light. If someone asked me about the fiction, it wouldn't occur to me that it was part of a larger discourse. On the other hand, if someone asked me if the fiction was worth less than the opinion pieces, or more, I'm not sure how I would answer.

Oh all right, I know exactly how I would answer. I would say: in the case of the fiction, it depends on the reader. Writing is only half of the process; being read, the other half. In the case of the opinions: they're mine. They are what they are. They don't depend on the interpretation of a reader for their existence or the spark of life that drove them.

Next rock

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

Glad to have made you laugh. I've never finished anything long enough to worry about this from the original fiction writer's point of view -- even the unfinished stuff is all stand-alones, at this point, where what is canon and what isn't feels less threatened to me, because by the time anyone sees the book I'll be done with my part.

*nodsnodsnods* to the licensed ones being restrictive -- I really admire people like kradical and suricattus who can take them on and do them well, but between what they'll let you do and the incredible speed you have to turn it around at... not my cuppa at all.

No, fanfic doesn't follow its own canon as a general rule. We all start from the official canon and go off in our own directions.

There are exceptions -- a series that branches from canon at a particular point will take its own preceeding stories as canon from there, or the very occasional story written as fanfic of another fanfic. Once one of my Buffy co-writers and I took a friend's Angel series as the equivilent of Angel the show to our Buffy the show, so her series was canon for us and vice versa.

And there's something called "fanon", which is stuff that never appeared in canon but has become common in fanfics -- a particular character background or nickname, for example. But it's generally used as pejorative -- considered lazy writing, the equivilent of using stereotypes instead of creating characters -- unless the person is doing something really different with it.

If I wrote a Buffy story -- no, wait, I did -- there was no intent to critique behind the conception of that story; it was purely filling in space between episodes (but two of my favourites, back to back).

Is it up somewhere? May I read it? :)

I wasn't evaluating the show, I wasn't evaluating the form of the show. I was writing a story.

That makes sense, and I think it's the most common form of fanfiction. But there's definitely a category of fix it fic, or fanwank fic, which is the "they screwed something up, from my perspective, and I'm going to rewrite it into something I'm happy with." It's not just a critique, but it starts there.

If someone asked me about the fiction, it wouldn't occur to me that it was part of a larger discourse.

Interesting. Maybe the difference is that I'm writing fanfic in a community context? The same people whose critiques I read, and who read mine, are reading my fic, making requests, I'm reading their fic, the rants turn into debates turn into story ideas turn into rants based on disagreeing with the character interpretations shown in the story etc. They really do all flow one into the other, so it feels like one conversation to me.

Whereas the two book fics I've written were more in isolation. One was a response to a request, but there wasn't the back and forth.

They don't depend on the interpretation of a reader for their existence or the spark of life that drove them.

I get that.

Should I be apologizing for spamming your journal, BTW? I'm really enjoying this discussion, but when all six of my comment notifications are from you I have to wonder if that means I'm monopolizing you too much.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

If I wrote a Buffy story -- no, wait, I did

Is it up somewhere? May I read it? :)

It's in the book "What I Did on my Summer Vacation" (I think that's the title), title of "Dust"; I have the next-to-last or possibly last version of it in Word format which I can email to you if you want. It's kind of 10K words.

If someone asked me about the fiction, it wouldn't occur to me that it was part of a larger discourse.

Interesting. Maybe the difference is that I'm writing fanfic in a community context? The same people whose critiques I read, and who read mine, are reading my fic, making requests, I'm reading their fic, the rants turn into debates turn into story ideas turn into rants based on disagreeing with the character interpretations shown in the story etc. They really do all flow one into the other, so it feels like one conversation to me.

I think this is probably the difference. Although there is a loose community of writers, we're nowhere near that tightly knit; we're likely to kvetch about our daily struggles, our moments of insanity, our bad review days, our lack of money, etc., etc., than we are to actually talk about our work. In many cases, the people I spend the most time with in the writing community haven't reliably read any of my work, or vice versa. There are two authors who, in a pinch, I'll send actual text -- but it's in a pinch, as in, stuck-so-stuck and the deadline is looming like an oncoming train. And yes, I'm on the tracks.

Whereas the two book fics I've written were more in isolation. One was a response to a request, but there wasn't the back and forth.

Was the request from an individual or from a community? I assume that, with the exception of Harry Potter, the fandoms for Television/movies are larger or easier to find.

Should I be apologizing for spamming your journal, BTW? I'm really enjoying this discussion, but when all six of my comment notifications are from you I have to wonder if that means I'm monopolizing you too much.

Don't apologize to me <g>. If you want to apologize to anyone else who happens to be reading this (and I'm assuming if it's making their eyes glaze over, they aren't anymore) that's fine, but I'm enjoying it, but am also finding it informative, and the two in combination are increasingly rare. Because I'm an older curmudgeon.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I'm not boring you. :) And I'll look for the book, thanks.

The request was from an individual -- though there *is* a thriving fanfic community for that author's books, due in part to her encouragement/tolerance. But I don't take part in it, partly because I don't like mailing lists and partly because it weirds me out that it's posted to a list that she reads. Even with a warning, that's a little more in your face than I'm comfortable getting.

However due to fannish interest convergence, people I've met through Buffy also tend to like many of the same books I do, and one of them asked for this.

In the fanfic community we don't talk about the specifics of our work as much as I may have implied -- though more than what you describe, since we don't have pro editors and must edit each other or go without. But since our friends and fellow writers are the same as our audience are the same as our fellow fans of the source material, a discussion of Buffy in season six can prompt me to write about Buffy in season six.

If you think that sounds incestuous, you're not wrong. And that's in a large fandom like Buffy, which has many different subgroups.

It's not universally true -- I have fannish friends who aren't into what I write and don't read it, and vice versa -- but it's more true than not.

Plus I just like to take requests, because writing to a known audience is easier for me than writing into the void. (It's no accident that two of the three short stories I've actually finished and submitted were written to anthology specs.)

And the challenge aspect is welcome -- when you're using a limited universe, and can't get too many steps away from it without losing your readers, if you're not going to just retread the same old ground, I find it helpful to have an outside goad to trying a new angle.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I'm not boring you. :) And I'll look for the book, thanks.

Feel free to comment; I can talk about what I had to change in order to meet the licensor requests.

The request was from an individual -- though there *is* a thriving fanfic community for that author's books, due in part to her encouragement/tolerance. But I don't take part in it, partly because I don't like mailing lists and partly because it weirds me out that it's posted to a list that she reads. Even with a warning, that's a little more in your face than I'm comfortable getting.

That's interesting, though. I know a number of writers who are less than willing to say they don't care about fanfic one way or the other in a public forum -- but they don't care if people do write it. I think fanfic is one of those political issues. A lot of professional writers loathe it, for a variety of reasons. Many refer to legal difficulties down the road, and I've read the cases for and against said legal difficulties.

Having said that, I don't think I know of anyone who would read fanfic based on their original fiction. There's a yahoo group that more or less talks about my novels. When I joined it, it was very small. As it's grown, I find that a) it's harder to keep up with and b) I feel that my presence in the discussion would stifle the discussion or kill it. Why? Because some of it is speculation, and obviously, were I not afraid of the whole Spoiler thing, I would be the authority.

In some ways, having any reaction at all to what was written would essentially have the same effect. Or I would think it would; I don't know. If fanfic is like writing with a net -- in that the world and canon is already established, and all that remains is to pour your own imagination into it -- having the author preside over it seems almost beside the point. Or possibly detrimental to it.

However due to fannish interest convergence, people I've met through Buffy also tend to like many of the same books I do, and one of them asked for this.

I'm assuming that in this case you've read and liked the original work. If you went ahead and did the reading research required otherwise, you're dedicated <g>.

In the fanfic community we don't talk about the specifics of our work as much as I may have implied -- though more than what you describe, since we don't have pro editors and must edit each other or go without. But since our friends and fellow writers are the same as our audience are the same as our fellow fans of the source material, a discussion of Buffy in season six can prompt me to write about Buffy in season six.

If you can have a discussion about season six that doesn't end in a meltdown, I'm impressed <g>. Fan editors have partial say in the final story? Or do they serve the function of a workshop?

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

Feel free to comment; I can talk about what I had to change in order to meet the licensor requests.

Ooh, that would be fascinating. Though it may take a while for me to get to it, as the to-read pile has filled the top of the fridge and must now be whittled before I have a tragic head bopping accident.

That's interesting, though. I know a number of writers who are less than willing to say they don't care about fanfic one way or the other in a public forum -- but they don't care if people do write it.

*nods* this is partly the frustrating part about the under the radar thing -- if I take silence as permission, I risk offending someone; if I take silence as refusal, I am missing out on all the people like this (and I know a few myself).

Having said that, I don't think I know of anyone who would read fanfic based on their original fiction.

I'm told some people did back before the Yarbro thing. Now it's too risky that someone will claim you stole an idea.

I feel that my presence in the discussion would stifle the discussion or kill it.

I get that. Heck, I stay out of a fanfic mailing list discussion in part because I'm one of many authors occasionally discussed there, and I don't want people to be inhibited about saying bad stuff if they want. Though if the fandom's big enough I think there's some utility to having one forum where the PTB hang out and one where they don't.

If fanfic is like writing with a net -- in that the world and canon is already established, and all that remains is to pour your own imagination into it -- having the author preside over it seems almost beside the point. Or possibly detrimental to it.

It'd certainly have something of a stifling effect -- I think that's the reason that most of the fic from that mailing list's archive is about minor character or missing scenes, and G rated. There's not that same freedom to do the wacky with the material.

On the other hand, if an author doesn't want the wacky done with their characters but doesn't want to say so outright -- or knows that would be ineffective -- presiding over it is a pretty effective way to both make fans feel happy and valued and keep a choke chain on the stuff that makes them uncomfortable.

I'm assuming that in this case you've read and liked the original work.

Oh yes. I'm not that dedicated. I did reread one volume of the series for research purposes, but it was not exactly a hardship. :)

If you can have a discussion about season six that doesn't end in a meltdown, I'm impressed .

Only with the choir, I'm afraid. We've had enough meltdowns by now to know who shares our basic opinions.

Fan editors have partial say in the final story? Or do they serve the function of a workshop?

Some of each. The most common is a "beta reader" who serves the function of a workshop, with the writer having final say.

There are edited zines where the editor has a partial say -- and a couple where the editor has made unilateral changes, although that's frowned on. But Buffy is mostly an online fandom, so I don't have much experience of that.

I'm more accustomed to juried sites, which are more like the acquistion editor of an understaffed publisher -- they have final say on what gets posted there, but they don't do much line editing if any. It's mostly in or out. Some of them you can submit to, but many host fic only by invitation.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

I agree that fanfic is a more emotional dialogue than review -- that's partly why I value it, because one of the things it says that review has trouble with is what emotional reaction the canon produced. I don't know that it's more emotional than parody, or just a different range of emotions, though I suppose mockery is inherently more distancing than love.

This is another point of interest that causes me to stop and think a bit more carefully. It hadn't occurred to me (because, as I've said elsewhere, I don't read fanfic) to look at it in those terms. I'll read usenet newsgroups, and I can pretty much glean what the emotional reaction is based on the comments/diatribes there -- but this is a more subtle take, and possibly a more complete one. It seems to be largely a single gender take, as well. Or am I wrong, in that?

I consider mockery more distancing than love; affectionate mockery is possible, but it's usually twined with something more substantial in terms of story.

property is first presented. Joss Whedon approves of fanfic, but he's doing Television, and I bet he'd be a lot less happy if fanfic writers were to get together and produce and air their own version of Buffy.

People do make fan videos, mostly by reediting footage. I don't know how Joss feels about it. Lucas Arts had a contest for Star Wars fanvids, though, so I don't think objection is a universal reaction to work in the same medium.

This is true enough -- but those aren't shown in the same context. They're not shown in the theatres; they're not racked with the DVDs. In fact, in the Lucas Arts case, the parallel between book and etext and movie and fanvid might be closer.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

I agree that fanfic is a more emotional dialogue than review -- that's partly why I value it, because one of the things it says that review has trouble with is what emotional reaction the canon produced. I don't know that it's more emotional than parody, or just a different range of emotions, though I suppose mockery is inherently more distancing than love.

This is another point of interest that causes me to stop and think a bit more carefully. It hadn't occurred to me (because, as I've said elsewhere, I don't read fanfic) to look at it in those terms. I'll read usenet newsgroups, and I can pretty much glean what the emotional reaction is based on the comments/diatribes there -- but this is a more subtle take, and possibly a more complete one. It seems to be largely a single gender take, as well. Or am I wrong, in that?

I consider mockery more distancing than love; affectionate mockery is possible, but it's usually twined with something more substantial in terms of story.

property is first presented. Joss Whedon approves of fanfic, but he's doing Television, and I bet he'd be a lot less happy if fanfic writers were to get together and produce and air their own version of Buffy.

People do make fan videos, mostly by reediting footage. I don't know how Joss feels about it. Lucas Arts had a contest for Star Wars fanvids, though, so I don't think objection is a universal reaction to work in the same medium.

This is true enough -- but those aren't shown in the same context. They're not shown in the theatres; they're not racked with the DVDs. In fact, in the Lucas Arts case, the parallel between book and etext and movie and fanvid might be closer.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

I'll read usenet newsgroups, and I can pretty much glean what the emotional reaction is based on the comments/diatribes there -- but this is a more subtle take, and possibly a more complete one. It seems to be largely a single gender take, as well. Or am I wrong, in that?

I think it's mostly female. But the fanfic writing community I move in is mostly female -- to the extent that just a few days ago one of the rare men started an LJ community so the guys could find each other. I don't think I really know enough guys who are into this to say.

I consider mockery more distancing than love; affectionate mockery is possible, but it's usually twined with something more substantial in terms of story.

*nodsnodsnods*

This is true enough -- but those aren't shown in the same context. They're not shown in the theatres; they're not racked with the DVDs. In fact, in the Lucas Arts case, the parallel between book and etext and movie and fanvid might be closer.

That makes sense. So I'm curious, if it's not a book, and not sold in bookstores, but is still text (etext or zine) is that enough distance? Or is the fact that the medium is the same still problematic if the distribution and visual cues are different? Or should I not have lumped etext and zine together?

[msagara.livejournal.com]

That makes sense. So I'm curious, if it's not a book, and not sold in bookstores, but is still text (etext or zine) is that enough distance? Or is the fact that the medium is the same still problematic if the distribution and visual cues are different? Or should I not have lumped etext and zine together?

For me? It's enough of a distance, which is why I don't mind and can be flattered or feel flattered; there is no sense in which I'm required to either curse or bless or edit. I can understand why you'd want to attach your name to the work, and I also -- were it my universe -- wouldn't mind that, either.

I'm continuing to mull over the idea of a writing form that exists almost, but not quite, as a communial act of imagination or property. I can't think of a writer, offhand, who could write original material that way -- but this is possibly a function of the process, i.e. only people who are capable of writing in a vaccuum push themselves through from start to finish. People who require community require something that, at least previous to this, didn't exist as part of the publication process.

Although on-line workshops, etc., are making the necessity to do that much less onerous, if you can work within that framework.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

What about stuff like shared worlds? Borderlands? (I have no idea what their process is like). Or collaborative writing teams? Though two people is a more manageable group than infinity.

I do think its easier when the canon is a given and what you're arguing is the interpretation than when you're creating from scratch. Though I think I could write a shared world that was collaborative from the get go -- heck, pro TV writers do it all the time, they rarely if ever get to go it alone -- but I'd have a hard time starting out with it as all mine and then accepting other people's takes as equally valid.

And yes, I think you're right. There are plenty of people who write fanfic who wouldn't write original fic. And while there are many different reasons for that, one of them for some folks may well be that they work better in a quilting bee than an isolated sewing room.

And there are also some folks who write fanfic with a deal less interaction -- mine is a very LJ based fanfic world, but they aren't all, and I started out writing with one friend and found the community later -- and some folks who start out here and then branch out into uncharted territory.

And it's not so communal as all *that* -- we each get final say about what our takes on the characters do, unless it's an RPG in written format. And then squabble like squabbling things about why our takes are right and other people's takes are wrong. *grin*

It's more like -- imagine the way that every time travel story plays off every other time travel story, either by taking bits or avoiding bits or breaking for new ground. And then imagine that all the writers knew each other personally and were writing at the Con That Never Ends.

They all do go off to their own rooms to pound laptop alone, but stuff that's said in the panels and in the bar finds its way into what they're writing because they're thinking about it. And then when the stories are published, that becomes new material for the panels and the bar.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

What about stuff like shared worlds? Borderlands? (I have no idea what their process is like). Or collaborative writing teams? Though two people is a more manageable group than infinity.

My understanding -- and sleigh would have a much, much better grip on this, having written in the Wild Cards shared world universe -- is that the bible, much like a television bible, is hashed out first. Hashing out fact, pointing out inconsistency and improbability is far more comfortable for something that's a set of facts than it is if one's arguing about fiction. After this has been hashed out, it differs. I think the Borderlands people were given free play; I think the Liavek people referred to each other more.

Collaborative writing teams vary hugely. In most of the collaborations that I can think of, one of the writers comes up with a relatively detailed outline; the other writer writes the actual novel. This is how most of the Baen collaborations are done, and it's usually the bigger name that does the outlining. There is some back and forth; often the person who outlined also has final edit.

But teams of long standing -- like Sharon Lee and Steve Miller -- must work in a different way, and I have no idea what that is. I know that when Steve Stirling and Shirley Meier were collaborating, they practically stood over each other's shoulder, taking turns at the keyboard and going back and forth (or at least this is what was said).

I do think its easier when the canon is a given and what you're arguing is the interpretation than when you're creating from scratch. Though I think I could write a shared world that was collaborative from the get go -- heck, pro TV writers do it all the time, they rarely if ever get to go it alone -- but I'd have a hard time starting out with it as all mine and then accepting other people's takes as equally valid.

The latter point is probably the reaction that sets many writers' teeth on edge. The sense of ownership is profound, and I do include myself in that number to a point. But… I don't find it easier when working in a given canon. I find it harder. I have to find a way to wedge the story into the form; I can't go off on a tangent in the wide-open way I can if it's my world, and I can't change or break things as the story also demands. I find it much, much harder to play in another person's sandbox, and I also find it harder because I have a much better idea of what the readership expects of that given franchise or universe.

I'm one of those writers who attempts to write what I would like to read, but in the end, I don't really think about the audience beyond that when I'm doing the actual writing. With the Luna novel, there was a lot more conscious effort to achieve a certain tone and pace, and I have no idea if that will fly. I was trying to channel Tanya Huff. I think I managed to get a line or two out of the effort <wry g>.

And yes, I think you're right. There are plenty of people who write fanfic who wouldn't write original fic. And while there are many different reasons for that, one of them for some folks may well be that they work better in a quilting bee than an isolated sewing room.

One good reason not to: it turns a hobby into a business. It changes the nature of the writing process. I don't think that fanfic writers are wasting their time; my perception now is that they're doing something out of love, as all hobbies are done. Some people who are writing fanfic do want to get published, and they can learn a lot just doing the writing -- but I don't think one has to lead to the other.

imagine the way that every time travel story plays off every other time travel story, either by taking bits or avoiding bits or breaking for new ground. And then imagine that all the writers knew each other personally and were writing at the Con That Never Ends.

Good analogy. I think that some of us would go nuts at this Con, but many of us go a little crazy at conventions anyway. I love to talk about the process of writing, but not so much the actual work itself -- I live in mortal terror of being derailed or losing the sense of emotional immediacy that drives to write in the first place.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

Gotcha. Interesting. I can see how hashing out the Bible would be easier, but OTOH I'd think you'd want to leave some room for stuff to come up in the course of writing and then be added to the world.

one of the writers comes up with a relatively detailed outline; the other writer writes the actual novel.

Bleah. Really? Props to anyone who's done this, but I think my writing a novel off someone else's outline would be a recipe for disaster, because it wouldn't be my story in any way, so it wouldn't be the kind I tell well.

I know Emma Lathen, the mystery writing team, alternates chapters, which also boggles my mind, but differently.

Some of my fanfic collaborating friends do it Method style -- each take a character, improvise the interactions, and then edit the results. (If not very firmly edited, this way produces reams of in-character interaction that doesn't advance the story at all, but people can be too attached to to cut.)

But teams of long standing -- like Sharon Lee and Steve Miller -- must work in a different way, and I have no idea what that is.

I'd be curious. Wonder if they've ever discussed it at a con.

I know that when Steve Stirling and Shirley Meier were collaborating, they practically stood over each other's shoulder, taking turns at the keyboard and going back and forth (or at least this is what was said).

*nods* That's how I've co-written in fanfic, hashing things out aloud and having one person transcribe until their wrists give out.

I don't find it easier when working in a given canon. I find it harder.

Sorry, I was using unclear pronouns. Not easier to write, necessarily; easier to deal with a communal sense of ownership when it's a given canon than when it's yours alone initially.

I can't change or break things as the story also demands.

Come and play on the darkfanfic side of the force! They don't pay you, but you can change or break as much as you like. :)

I'm one of those writers who attempts to write what I would like to read

Really? I often write things I wouldn't pick up if written by someone else. Lord knows why.

With the Luna novel, there was a lot more conscious effort to achieve a certain tone and pace, and I have no idea if that will fly.

Is your Luna novel out yet?

One good reason not to: it turns a hobby into a business. It changes the nature of the writing process. I don't think that fanfic writers are wasting their time; my perception now is that they're doing something out of love, as all hobbies are done. Some people who are writing fanfic do want to get published, and they can learn a lot just doing the writing -- but I don't think one has to lead to the other.

*nodsnodsnods* Exactly. And of course, some people are already doing both -- though many of them seem to have guilt about the fanfic.

I love to talk about the process of writing, but not so much the actual work itself -- I live in mortal terror of being derailed or losing the sense of emotional immediacy that drives to write in the first place.

I worry sometimes that I'm doing that. But I can't imagine working on something as long as a novel and not talking about it with anyone until it's done.

[cofax7]

One good reason not to: it turns a hobby into a business. It changes the nature of the writing process. I don't think that fanfic writers are wasting their time; my perception now is that they're doing something out of love, as all hobbies are done. Some people who are writing fanfic do want to get published, and they can learn a lot just doing the writing -- but I don't think one has to lead to the other.

Exactly, and thank you. I've learned a lot through writing fic, but that's not why I do it. I have written some original fiction, using some of what I've learned through writing fic, but again, it's not a conscious process of "first I'll write fic for a while so I know what I'm doing and then I'll become a professional writer."

I write because it's fun, and because I'm pretty good at it. And I've met a lot of smart, funny people through the process.

Also, selling stories? Is work. It's much easier to slap them up on my LJ. *grin*

As Mer says, for many of us (but not all), this is an intensely communal process. I find myself writing things I wouldn't otherwise think to, because I know they'll please friends whom I value.

Hell, I started writing Stargate not because I adore the show (I like it well enough, but it's far from brilliant), but because my friend vonnielake had some TimTams she was willing to ship me and I wanted to give her something in exchange for them. ::shrugs:: And here I am now, five months later, halfway through an epic post-apocalyptic story about the invasion of the planet. Heh.

Anyway. Sorry to barge in on your conversation. ::sits back to watch some more::

[rowyn]

Sometimes I think it is -- a critique in fictional form, showing what the reader thinks was missing or wrong, not unlike a traditional parody, except by adding or fixing what the writer thinks is missing instead of exaggerating what is there. Like the Wind Done Gone, which was ruled a parody, but is hardly Bored of the Rings.

Or Wide Sargasso Sea, a "prequel" to Jane Eyre written a century later (I disliked Wide Sargasso Sea, but that's me. Or Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon. Or, y'know, the majority of Shakespeare's plays, though he usually filed the serial numbers off so maybe they don't count. :D

There's actually a subgenre of Literature with a capital L that is, essentially, fanfic of old works in the literary canon. Perhaps authors get away with this more easily than fanfic of contemporary works because they are considered a kind of "updating"; the author is taking a feminist or non-colonial or otherwise "modern" view of the text, and running with it. Sometimes in the opposite direction.

Like so many things, there's an awful lot of "grey area" in the realm of building off of someone else's ideas.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

*nodsnods* I never read Wide Sargosso Sea. I wasn't *that* fond of Jane Eyre that I wanted more of it.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

There's actually a subgenre of Literature with a capital L that is, essentially, fanfic of old works in the literary canon. Perhaps authors get away with this more easily than fanfic of contemporary works because they are considered a kind of "updating"; the author is taking a feminist or non-colonial or otherwise "modern" view of the text, and running with it. Sometimes in the opposite direction.

Errr. I understand what you're attempting to say here, but I don't agree with some of it. Authors "get away" with this because in an attempt to modernize what has become a part of the literary canon they're responding to it across a generation; this is they type of dialogue that exists when history intervenes; when the modern tropes and the historical tropes can't coexist, but there's still an echo of old power.

The sequel to Gone With The Wind was fanfic, yes. Pure, utter fanfic. And awful. But I found the first one awful as well, in a kind of fascinating but couldn't-bear-to-finish-the-prose way. And someone mentioned the Brian Herbert & Kevin Anderson DUNE books, which I would class as follow-on in the fanfic tradition.

But I really don't consider something like Mists of Avalon (which I didn't love) to be in any way like fanfic.

[zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com]

coming in way, way, way late from naominovik (http://www.livejournal.com/users/naominovik/2269.html), and maybe this will be explained later on (Haven't read all 88 comments yet).

But why isn't Mists of Avalon fanfic to your mind? And where would something like Wicked fall? How about West Side Story as compared to Romeo and Juliet? As a fanfic reader, they are all three clearly fanfiction to me. The sort of reimagining, turn canon on its head stuff that MoA and Wicked did are really treasured in parts of the fanfiction community. We like a story that makes us think this thing we thought we knew and loved all the way through again.