Fanfic and flying under the radar

[msagara]

stakebait wrote
Been thinking more about this. What makes it [fanfic] not public is the attempt to fly under the radar of the Powers That Be, right? Or at least not actively draw their attention? Though how much that's done varies quite a bit from creator to creator. I know of at least one mailing list, read and posted to by the author, where fanfic is simply labeled "fanfic" so she can avoid reading it, but there's no attempt to pretend that it doesn't exist.

I've been thinking more about it as well. This is less an answer to your question than it started out being, but it is a more methodical examination of my own reaction.


What makes it less public is twofold, for me. Radar is part of it, but not by any means the whole. Let me try to express it. Let me take a whole new post to do it, because I've outrun my word limit. Again.

PART ONE

Fanfic is not a critique, nor is it a review of what exists; fanfic writers are certainly capable of doing book critiques/reviews or movie/tv critiques/reviews, but no one calls those fanfic. Both critique and review consider the text at hand (or the show at hand), assessing what's there, and giving their (hopefully but not always) informed opinion on it. There is a dialogue of sorts between some of these reviewers and the creative person(s) at the other end; there is a dialogue of sorts between some of these reviewers and the fans of the work in question. But if the review has some heat or love at its heart, it's still about the work as a whole. I don't consider this a dialogue in the standard sense; I'm now using dialogue in the sense that you used it originally, so if I stumble in that, bear with me.

In some instances, I think there are parodies or even satires -- but I don't consider those to be fanfic, and this could be because my definition is way the heck too narrow, i.e. I'm ignorant. Parody usually reflects the original work as a whole, and some understanding of the original is necessary in order for the parody to work at all; I consider parody a broad commentary, because that's the point of parody. Well, and also to make fun of the audience reaction. Digression.

Fanfic, rather than being a (theoretically) objective form of that dialogue or response, is much more of an emotional dialogue; it exists first between the reader and what they draw out of the primary work, and second, in the text they create. It explores other possibilities and permutations (if I understand what you've said correctly) that the original work did not -- or hasn't yet. Or never will.

But much of fanfic is essentially fiction, with serial numbers, and its aim is the aim, in many ways, of the original work, because if it didn't have some of that same feel or tone it wouldn't be fanfic. Because of the serial numbers, there is a need to fly under the radar. I would argue that it's that need that allows fanfic to thrive, although it does keep it out of the public eye to a greater or lesser extent. If you don't know anything about it, it's invisible; once you do, it's everywhere. Okay, I really have to stop with the digressions.

Having said that, let's go back to the need to fly under the radar. This is partly necessitated by legal convention, and as the copyright holder, I cannot outright decry it, for a variety of reasons, one being, I have some attachment to my copyright.

What happens under the radar is of less concern to me than what happens above the radar. There are things I would not want my characters to say or do. Obviously, when I'm writing, I have say in this (although, creative process being what it is, not 100% <wry g>). If someone is writing fanfic based on my characters or in my universe, what they want the characters to do is part of their emotional response. And -- beneath the radar -- this is a valid exploration; it's a little like daydreaming in public, which, in many ways, is where the heart of many stories start. The work comes after.

But if you remove the protective layer, which we'll call the radar level, I would feel a lot more ambivalent, because there are ways in which I would not want my characters to be represented to my readers, many of whom still don't own computers (I know, I always find this a bit shocking; it's stranger, to me, than not owning a telephone or a television but I digress, as always). In the public sense -- in the way my vision is present as my vision to the universe, or the small slice that reads my books <wry g>, and speaking with no delusions of grandeur (although I can't speak for other types of delusions), I can clearly state that I want my vision of my creation to be the canonical vision. I realize that's a lot of genetive use there.

Let me sum it up in a less unwieldy fashion: I do not want other writers defining canon in a universe I create.


PART TWO

But part of the difference in my reaction, part of the sense of "public" or "legitimate" stems, in part, from the medium through which the original property is first presented. Joss Whedon approves of fanfic, but he's doing Television, and I bet he'd be a lot less happy if fanfic writers were to get together and produce and air their own version of Buffy. A lot, as in lawsuits and really ugly things, and I don't think he'd be hands-off at that point.

Many of the people who watch the show will never read the licensed spinoffs, and they'll also never read the fanfic. Both the spinoffs and the fanfic fill a smaller role than the original broadcast did. It's accepted that what happens in the textual presentations or the comic books or the fanfic, etc, licensed or not., are not canonical; they can be ignored or changed or overturned at the whim of the licensor. In a sense, the spirit of generosity that allows the fanfic to exist can only be generous, in my view, because of that -- the other works are not canonical. They don't change anything. They don't touch or mark or move the original, and they don't open or close the avenues the original series can move in. The creator feels free to ignore them entirely.

When you're dealing with fanfic based on written work, you're suddenly dealing with the exact same medium, which is why I think more tension exists.

I don't know any writers who hate filksongs inspired by their works. I don't know any writers who hate art inspired by their work. Or costumes. Many would be perfectly happy to have RPGs or Television shows based on their works (if they were paid <g>).

But none of these media are the primary medium for the creator -- the text, in the case of books, is.

Knowing that canon is decided by me (and knowing that some people won't always be happy with the decisions I make) gives me the same comfort zone that someone producing television shows would have. Reviews, critiques-- these don't really change the way people view the original. Are they public? Yes. But in some sense they relate to the canonical work.

They make no attempt to change the work; they can savage it, they can praise it, they can dissect it for meaning -- but they're not there to rework to it; at most, they can shift the way we view what's already there. In this sense, the work is the point of the discourse. And as all writers know, once something is published, it's public, and people can say whatever the want about it. We're prepared for that. That's the sense of "public" I assume when I see the word.

In the case of fanfic, the work is the stepping stone, the foundation, the thing people stand on while they branch out; the anchor to which they tie their own skills, developing their own voices and abilities. At this point in time, one can sort of assume that readers and writers of fanfic have read or watched the originals, so there's a certainty of informed creation, even if the creation is not canon.

But were the fanfic based on novels to be published as novels in their own right -- without any vetting or interference from the original author -- there's no guarantee that new readers would be so informed, and the canonical understanding of a creation that originated elsewhere -- like, say, me -- could shift radically. A book, after all, is a book, and it sits on the shelf, like other books.

And I'm sorry if it makes me sound hideously selfish -- and I'm aware that it probably does -- but the right to set canon is incredibly important to me.

Comments

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

my name is sort of an afterthought. If that makes sense.

It does. It isn't the pseud that bugs me -- I may use one for original stuff myself. It's the anxiety about what happens if my (extremely thin, I suck at anonymity) wall is breached.

I can't imagine that it's hugely less work than the work I do.

It's less, for me anyway. The worldbuilding is done, & I can get away with short stories that only get readers invested because they have a series' worth of backstory behind them.

Some people write series of fannish novels that challenge you for wordcount, but I ain't one of 'em. Even my co-written series (& co-writing, IMO, is vastly easier) didn't come close.

Plus, my editing work is less, because it's done when I say. (I'd guess finding an editor who will be critical enough is less of a problem for you. But I could be wrong.) & I don't have to sell it. But I'd like to put my name on it anyway. Fortunately a consistant pseud has much the same effect.

I don't consider most fanfic to be done with an intent to poke fun, which I generally consider parody to be.

Neither do I. To fit fanfic under that rubric, you have to take a broader definition of parody as transformative use (which I got from a legal essay by Rebecca Tushnet, but seems to be in keeping with the Wind Done Gone case, since no one seems to find that funny.)

so I'm making base assumptions that could be entirely wrong, wrong, wrong.

No, you're right. Humorous fanfic does exist, but it's a small subgenre, & the amount which is poking fun (not just trying to be funny) is smaller.

Ah! Got it. Literary dialogue! The light dawns. I have, in the words of Pratchett, a mental sunrise. Where each particular fandom is a microcosm of the larger literary tradition.

Yes, that's exactly what I was groping for. Though you said it much better.

Part of the reason these work so well, though, is that those works are widely enough known that there's a resonance; the work comes as a revelation that's almost mythic or archetypal in force.

I agree. I do think, though, that at least in my fannish microcosm, that's the way the common source canon feels to us -- that's why it was sufficiently paradigm-changing to organize a major part of our thinking, reading, and writing around.

I'm not going to claim that Joss is Shakespeare, but in my daily life I speak Buffy -- not only the addictive neologisms, but in metaphors drawn from those characters, like my personal myths, & my friends do too. There may not be that resonance to the man on the street, but to our own audience, there is. Much like Nightfall to an SF fan.

It's not a literary dialogue, but a dialogue with our past, with our possible naivete, with what we've bought into at other times.

Ah, I see. That part isn't there in fanfic. (At least my bits. I'm told there's Shakespeare, Austen, & Bible fanfic.)

Fifty years from now, if Buffy were part of the collective cultural psyche, it would be possible -- I think -- to have that same overarching effect.the time for turning that over, for seeing what lies underneath and is relevant to a different generation with different myths and experiences, isn't yet; she's ours.

She is indeed. But do we only want to write about other people's myths? I'm also interested in Jewish stories by Jews, Christian stories by Christians, & wireless networking stories by Cory Doctorow . :) I want to see what myths mean to the people who believe them -- & I want to write what my own mean to me in fiction, because that's how I find out.

I see the later works working because the note of cultural relevance, the shift of perspective, is in part generational.

*nods* That does make sense. I don't think you get that shift in most contemporary fanfic -- you get a much closer perspective, of people who are living with, in, & through these stories as they happen. But I like that too.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

What about stuff like shared worlds? Borderlands? (I have no idea what their process is like). Or collaborative writing teams? Though two people is a more manageable group than infinity.

I do think its easier when the canon is a given and what you're arguing is the interpretation than when you're creating from scratch. Though I think I could write a shared world that was collaborative from the get go -- heck, pro TV writers do it all the time, they rarely if ever get to go it alone -- but I'd have a hard time starting out with it as all mine and then accepting other people's takes as equally valid.

And yes, I think you're right. There are plenty of people who write fanfic who wouldn't write original fic. And while there are many different reasons for that, one of them for some folks may well be that they work better in a quilting bee than an isolated sewing room.

And there are also some folks who write fanfic with a deal less interaction -- mine is a very LJ based fanfic world, but they aren't all, and I started out writing with one friend and found the community later -- and some folks who start out here and then branch out into uncharted territory.

And it's not so communal as all *that* -- we each get final say about what our takes on the characters do, unless it's an RPG in written format. And then squabble like squabbling things about why our takes are right and other people's takes are wrong. *grin*

It's more like -- imagine the way that every time travel story plays off every other time travel story, either by taking bits or avoiding bits or breaking for new ground. And then imagine that all the writers knew each other personally and were writing at the Con That Never Ends.

They all do go off to their own rooms to pound laptop alone, but stuff that's said in the panels and in the bar finds its way into what they're writing because they're thinking about it. And then when the stories are published, that becomes new material for the panels and the bar.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I'm not boring you. :) And I'll look for the book, thanks.

The request was from an individual -- though there *is* a thriving fanfic community for that author's books, due in part to her encouragement/tolerance. But I don't take part in it, partly because I don't like mailing lists and partly because it weirds me out that it's posted to a list that she reads. Even with a warning, that's a little more in your face than I'm comfortable getting.

However due to fannish interest convergence, people I've met through Buffy also tend to like many of the same books I do, and one of them asked for this.

In the fanfic community we don't talk about the specifics of our work as much as I may have implied -- though more than what you describe, since we don't have pro editors and must edit each other or go without. But since our friends and fellow writers are the same as our audience are the same as our fellow fans of the source material, a discussion of Buffy in season six can prompt me to write about Buffy in season six.

If you think that sounds incestuous, you're not wrong. And that's in a large fandom like Buffy, which has many different subgroups.

It's not universally true -- I have fannish friends who aren't into what I write and don't read it, and vice versa -- but it's more true than not.

Plus I just like to take requests, because writing to a known audience is easier for me than writing into the void. (It's no accident that two of the three short stories I've actually finished and submitted were written to anthology specs.)

And the challenge aspect is welcome -- when you're using a limited universe, and can't get too many steps away from it without losing your readers, if you're not going to just retread the same old ground, I find it helpful to have an outside goad to trying a new angle.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I'm not boring you. :) And I'll look for the book, thanks.

Feel free to comment; I can talk about what I had to change in order to meet the licensor requests.

The request was from an individual -- though there *is* a thriving fanfic community for that author's books, due in part to her encouragement/tolerance. But I don't take part in it, partly because I don't like mailing lists and partly because it weirds me out that it's posted to a list that she reads. Even with a warning, that's a little more in your face than I'm comfortable getting.

That's interesting, though. I know a number of writers who are less than willing to say they don't care about fanfic one way or the other in a public forum -- but they don't care if people do write it. I think fanfic is one of those political issues. A lot of professional writers loathe it, for a variety of reasons. Many refer to legal difficulties down the road, and I've read the cases for and against said legal difficulties.

Having said that, I don't think I know of anyone who would read fanfic based on their original fiction. There's a yahoo group that more or less talks about my novels. When I joined it, it was very small. As it's grown, I find that a) it's harder to keep up with and b) I feel that my presence in the discussion would stifle the discussion or kill it. Why? Because some of it is speculation, and obviously, were I not afraid of the whole Spoiler thing, I would be the authority.

In some ways, having any reaction at all to what was written would essentially have the same effect. Or I would think it would; I don't know. If fanfic is like writing with a net -- in that the world and canon is already established, and all that remains is to pour your own imagination into it -- having the author preside over it seems almost beside the point. Or possibly detrimental to it.

However due to fannish interest convergence, people I've met through Buffy also tend to like many of the same books I do, and one of them asked for this.

I'm assuming that in this case you've read and liked the original work. If you went ahead and did the reading research required otherwise, you're dedicated <g>.

In the fanfic community we don't talk about the specifics of our work as much as I may have implied -- though more than what you describe, since we don't have pro editors and must edit each other or go without. But since our friends and fellow writers are the same as our audience are the same as our fellow fans of the source material, a discussion of Buffy in season six can prompt me to write about Buffy in season six.

If you can have a discussion about season six that doesn't end in a meltdown, I'm impressed <g>. Fan editors have partial say in the final story? Or do they serve the function of a workshop?

[msagara.livejournal.com]

What about stuff like shared worlds? Borderlands? (I have no idea what their process is like). Or collaborative writing teams? Though two people is a more manageable group than infinity.

My understanding -- and sleigh would have a much, much better grip on this, having written in the Wild Cards shared world universe -- is that the bible, much like a television bible, is hashed out first. Hashing out fact, pointing out inconsistency and improbability is far more comfortable for something that's a set of facts than it is if one's arguing about fiction. After this has been hashed out, it differs. I think the Borderlands people were given free play; I think the Liavek people referred to each other more.

Collaborative writing teams vary hugely. In most of the collaborations that I can think of, one of the writers comes up with a relatively detailed outline; the other writer writes the actual novel. This is how most of the Baen collaborations are done, and it's usually the bigger name that does the outlining. There is some back and forth; often the person who outlined also has final edit.

But teams of long standing -- like Sharon Lee and Steve Miller -- must work in a different way, and I have no idea what that is. I know that when Steve Stirling and Shirley Meier were collaborating, they practically stood over each other's shoulder, taking turns at the keyboard and going back and forth (or at least this is what was said).

I do think its easier when the canon is a given and what you're arguing is the interpretation than when you're creating from scratch. Though I think I could write a shared world that was collaborative from the get go -- heck, pro TV writers do it all the time, they rarely if ever get to go it alone -- but I'd have a hard time starting out with it as all mine and then accepting other people's takes as equally valid.

The latter point is probably the reaction that sets many writers' teeth on edge. The sense of ownership is profound, and I do include myself in that number to a point. But… I don't find it easier when working in a given canon. I find it harder. I have to find a way to wedge the story into the form; I can't go off on a tangent in the wide-open way I can if it's my world, and I can't change or break things as the story also demands. I find it much, much harder to play in another person's sandbox, and I also find it harder because I have a much better idea of what the readership expects of that given franchise or universe.

I'm one of those writers who attempts to write what I would like to read, but in the end, I don't really think about the audience beyond that when I'm doing the actual writing. With the Luna novel, there was a lot more conscious effort to achieve a certain tone and pace, and I have no idea if that will fly. I was trying to channel Tanya Huff. I think I managed to get a line or two out of the effort <wry g>.

And yes, I think you're right. There are plenty of people who write fanfic who wouldn't write original fic. And while there are many different reasons for that, one of them for some folks may well be that they work better in a quilting bee than an isolated sewing room.

One good reason not to: it turns a hobby into a business. It changes the nature of the writing process. I don't think that fanfic writers are wasting their time; my perception now is that they're doing something out of love, as all hobbies are done. Some people who are writing fanfic do want to get published, and they can learn a lot just doing the writing -- but I don't think one has to lead to the other.

imagine the way that every time travel story plays off every other time travel story, either by taking bits or avoiding bits or breaking for new ground. And then imagine that all the writers knew each other personally and were writing at the Con That Never Ends.

Good analogy. I think that some of us would go nuts at this Con, but many of us go a little crazy at conventions anyway. I love to talk about the process of writing, but not so much the actual work itself -- I live in mortal terror of being derailed or losing the sense of emotional immediacy that drives to write in the first place.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

Feel free to comment; I can talk about what I had to change in order to meet the licensor requests.

Ooh, that would be fascinating. Though it may take a while for me to get to it, as the to-read pile has filled the top of the fridge and must now be whittled before I have a tragic head bopping accident.

That's interesting, though. I know a number of writers who are less than willing to say they don't care about fanfic one way or the other in a public forum -- but they don't care if people do write it.

*nods* this is partly the frustrating part about the under the radar thing -- if I take silence as permission, I risk offending someone; if I take silence as refusal, I am missing out on all the people like this (and I know a few myself).

Having said that, I don't think I know of anyone who would read fanfic based on their original fiction.

I'm told some people did back before the Yarbro thing. Now it's too risky that someone will claim you stole an idea.

I feel that my presence in the discussion would stifle the discussion or kill it.

I get that. Heck, I stay out of a fanfic mailing list discussion in part because I'm one of many authors occasionally discussed there, and I don't want people to be inhibited about saying bad stuff if they want. Though if the fandom's big enough I think there's some utility to having one forum where the PTB hang out and one where they don't.

If fanfic is like writing with a net -- in that the world and canon is already established, and all that remains is to pour your own imagination into it -- having the author preside over it seems almost beside the point. Or possibly detrimental to it.

It'd certainly have something of a stifling effect -- I think that's the reason that most of the fic from that mailing list's archive is about minor character or missing scenes, and G rated. There's not that same freedom to do the wacky with the material.

On the other hand, if an author doesn't want the wacky done with their characters but doesn't want to say so outright -- or knows that would be ineffective -- presiding over it is a pretty effective way to both make fans feel happy and valued and keep a choke chain on the stuff that makes them uncomfortable.

I'm assuming that in this case you've read and liked the original work.

Oh yes. I'm not that dedicated. I did reread one volume of the series for research purposes, but it was not exactly a hardship. :)

If you can have a discussion about season six that doesn't end in a meltdown, I'm impressed .

Only with the choir, I'm afraid. We've had enough meltdowns by now to know who shares our basic opinions.

Fan editors have partial say in the final story? Or do they serve the function of a workshop?

Some of each. The most common is a "beta reader" who serves the function of a workshop, with the writer having final say.

There are edited zines where the editor has a partial say -- and a couple where the editor has made unilateral changes, although that's frowned on. But Buffy is mostly an online fandom, so I don't have much experience of that.

I'm more accustomed to juried sites, which are more like the acquistion editor of an understaffed publisher -- they have final say on what gets posted there, but they don't do much line editing if any. It's mostly in or out. Some of them you can submit to, but many host fic only by invitation.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

What makes fanfic easier for me than original fic is my entitlement issues: I don't feel half so egotistical in writing fanfic to the demands of a pre-existing audience. Writing original work implies that I think someone should care about my own POV, which the backbrain translates as selfishness and cuts the words off dead. But that's a separate neurosis and shall be told another time, in my own journal.

I somehow missed this. I love LJ. I love the email notifications. Really. Especially when I actually get them.

I hope you do address this at another time in your LJ. Because, of course, it's a process question, and I find process fascinating.

I find writing to an existing audience vastly more constraining and more stressful. It can be argued that there's an existing audience for my original fiction -- but it's not an audience that I can easily quantify. The audience that exists for, say, Buffy or Valdemar, has expectations of a work -- and with some reason -- that places the onus on me, as the writer, to get it right. To get the tone right for the audience, as opposed to for the story; I don't have the latitude to shift tone hugely, to change the way characters talk or think, to let them grow organically. Communication being what it is, there's no guarantee of success; I can't objectively look at anything I write and say "this works for this audience". Any certainty I have, I gain after the fact, when, in fact, nothing can be revised or changed <wry g>.

I have no idea who my audience is when I write my West novels. I truly don't. I know who some of them are very well -- jediboadicea and illarphaniel being two -- because they get out of the text what I think I put into it (and this is a blessing in ways too numerous to count). But people also read these books who don't; they get other things that I'm less aware of, or they're interested in elements of the worldbuilding that would not natively interest me as a reader, but have to exist in a full realized fashion for me as a writer.

This ignorance on my part gives me the freedom to be true only to the story itself. The world can twist and events can change and characters can die as the story demands -- and there is no part of me that stops to think "this will offend the audience" or "this is so out of character". I can fret about it after the fact (and do, being a writer and all). I have a freedom in that that probably is egotistical; it's me I have to satisfy first. I can be certain of structure, for instance, and of tone, but they exist almost independent of the readers because the readers who've written to me over the years read my work for vastly different reasons; I don't have a clear consensus that emerges. If I did, I might feel more bound by it.

Whereas original fiction pretty well has to get past a gatekeeper to get anyone's attention.

And even that's no guarantee.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

I hope you do address this at another time in your LJ. Because, of course, it's a process question, and I find process fascinating.

I will -- I'm thinking of little else these days. It's just such a new revelation for me that I don't really know how to address it. Though having a specific person sincerely request that I finish a specific original piece because they want to read it seems to work as a temporary kludge, at least for short stuff.

I find writing to an existing audience vastly more constraining and more stressful.

Wow, we couldn't be more different, could we? That's another thing that makes sense now that you say it but I wouldn't have thought of on my own. I'm learning a lot from this conversation.

but it's not an audience that I can easily quantify.

*nods* I'm still at the stage where I can name a fair fraction of my readers. I don't necessarily know what they want, or predict what they would like, but I do know who they are. Although really I just need one. Everyone else is gravy.

The audience that exists for, say, Buffy or Valdemar, has expectations of a work -- and with some reason -- that places the onus on me, as the writer, to get it right. To get the tone right for the audience, as opposed to for the story; I don't have the latitude to shift tone hugely, to change the way characters talk or think, to let them grow organically.

The first and last wouldn't be true for fanfic, BTW -- tone changes are part of what people look for in fanfic because they aren't getting them from canon, and letting them grow organically is the whole point. But I understand that it's not possible in the official stuff. The "can't change the way characters talk or think" is still the same, at least in theory.

Communication being what it is, there's no guarantee of success; I can't objectively look at anything I write and say "this works for this audience". Any certainty I have, I gain after the fact, when, in fact, nothing can be revised or changed .

*nodsnodsnods* I get that.

I have no idea who my audience is when I write my West novels. I truly don't.

And you find that freeing, yes? I would like to get to that place. Right now I find it paralysing -- like being slapped in the face with my own presumption. This is also where writing process crosses over into therapy process, to my frustration and embarassment.

This ignorance on my part gives me the freedom to be true only to the story itself. The world can twist and events can change and characters can die as the story demands -- and there is no part of me that stops to think "this will offend the audience"

That's funny -- I never think that, even when I'm writing Spike and Buffy in the library with the candlestick to Jane Doe's specifications. They set the parameters, and I just go from there.

I do worry about out of character because I didn't invent these characters and I do need to color in the lines. But I don't really worry about other people's opinions of it, just mine.

I have a freedom in that that probably is egotistical; it's me I have to satisfy first.

I don't think it's egotistical, I think it's healthy. Unfortunately I'm unhealthy enough that when it comes to me it feels egotistical. *wry grin* I still have to satisfy myself first as to whether it's good enough, but in order to write it at all I need to know that someone else wants to read it.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

Gotcha. Interesting. I can see how hashing out the Bible would be easier, but OTOH I'd think you'd want to leave some room for stuff to come up in the course of writing and then be added to the world.

one of the writers comes up with a relatively detailed outline; the other writer writes the actual novel.

Bleah. Really? Props to anyone who's done this, but I think my writing a novel off someone else's outline would be a recipe for disaster, because it wouldn't be my story in any way, so it wouldn't be the kind I tell well.

I know Emma Lathen, the mystery writing team, alternates chapters, which also boggles my mind, but differently.

Some of my fanfic collaborating friends do it Method style -- each take a character, improvise the interactions, and then edit the results. (If not very firmly edited, this way produces reams of in-character interaction that doesn't advance the story at all, but people can be too attached to to cut.)

But teams of long standing -- like Sharon Lee and Steve Miller -- must work in a different way, and I have no idea what that is.

I'd be curious. Wonder if they've ever discussed it at a con.

I know that when Steve Stirling and Shirley Meier were collaborating, they practically stood over each other's shoulder, taking turns at the keyboard and going back and forth (or at least this is what was said).

*nods* That's how I've co-written in fanfic, hashing things out aloud and having one person transcribe until their wrists give out.

I don't find it easier when working in a given canon. I find it harder.

Sorry, I was using unclear pronouns. Not easier to write, necessarily; easier to deal with a communal sense of ownership when it's a given canon than when it's yours alone initially.

I can't change or break things as the story also demands.

Come and play on the darkfanfic side of the force! They don't pay you, but you can change or break as much as you like. :)

I'm one of those writers who attempts to write what I would like to read

Really? I often write things I wouldn't pick up if written by someone else. Lord knows why.

With the Luna novel, there was a lot more conscious effort to achieve a certain tone and pace, and I have no idea if that will fly.

Is your Luna novel out yet?

One good reason not to: it turns a hobby into a business. It changes the nature of the writing process. I don't think that fanfic writers are wasting their time; my perception now is that they're doing something out of love, as all hobbies are done. Some people who are writing fanfic do want to get published, and they can learn a lot just doing the writing -- but I don't think one has to lead to the other.

*nodsnodsnods* Exactly. And of course, some people are already doing both -- though many of them seem to have guilt about the fanfic.

I love to talk about the process of writing, but not so much the actual work itself -- I live in mortal terror of being derailed or losing the sense of emotional immediacy that drives to write in the first place.

I worry sometimes that I'm doing that. But I can't imagine working on something as long as a novel and not talking about it with anyone until it's done.

[cofax7]

The problem, I find, with talking about fic is that no generalization goes unchallenged. *g*

While I agree that for a fanfic to work, one has to have read majority of the body of work to have the underpinning assumptions down, the story itself is generally a pretty narrow topic.

I'd say that there's plenty of fic that addresses the whole of the source product, either by reinvisioning it (Kodiakke Max's In the Company of Ghosts, which spins four seasons of Farscape radically off its axis), by broadening its scope (Peg and Macedon's Talking Stick Stories set in the Voyager universe), or producing a classic "episode" of the show in written form (any one of dozens of X-Files casefiles written by people like Jill Selby or Nascent).

Certainly the bulk of fic, and the easiest to write, is the stuff that spins easily off a single moment, focusing on a single character or pairing. But it is possible to write fiction that handles the characters and the situations of the source product in as even-handed a manner as the producers do. It's just harder.

Just my $.02, of course.

[zhaneel69.livejournal.com]

Hence why I post the disclaimer that this was in my experience and may well have been wrong.

Certainly the bulk of fic, and the easiest to write, is the stuff that spins easily off a single moment, focusing on a single character or pairing. But it is possible to write fiction that handles the characters and the situations of the source product in as even-handed a manner as the producers do. It's just harder.

To me, this means that my statement about "generally" was still correct. The bulk = majority = generally. QED. Saying that there are a few examples to the contrary means that they are exceptions. And generally != always.

That's me being picky.

I'm glad to know there is well thought out fanfic that redefines the original work. However, at what point does that re-invisioning process become so different from the original cannon that one should consider it more of a parody/alternate reality rather than fanfic?

Zhaneel

[cofax7]

One good reason not to: it turns a hobby into a business. It changes the nature of the writing process. I don't think that fanfic writers are wasting their time; my perception now is that they're doing something out of love, as all hobbies are done. Some people who are writing fanfic do want to get published, and they can learn a lot just doing the writing -- but I don't think one has to lead to the other.

Exactly, and thank you. I've learned a lot through writing fic, but that's not why I do it. I have written some original fiction, using some of what I've learned through writing fic, but again, it's not a conscious process of "first I'll write fic for a while so I know what I'm doing and then I'll become a professional writer."

I write because it's fun, and because I'm pretty good at it. And I've met a lot of smart, funny people through the process.

Also, selling stories? Is work. It's much easier to slap them up on my LJ. *grin*

As Mer says, for many of us (but not all), this is an intensely communal process. I find myself writing things I wouldn't otherwise think to, because I know they'll please friends whom I value.

Hell, I started writing Stargate not because I adore the show (I like it well enough, but it's far from brilliant), but because my friend vonnielake had some TimTams she was willing to ship me and I wanted to give her something in exchange for them. ::shrugs:: And here I am now, five months later, halfway through an epic post-apocalyptic story about the invasion of the planet. Heh.

Anyway. Sorry to barge in on your conversation. ::sits back to watch some more::

[cofax7]

However, at what point does that re-invisioning process become so different from the original cannon that one should consider it more of a parody/alternate reality rather than fanfic?

Ah, well, there's a school of thought that all fanfic is alternate reality. It's not on your television screen between 8 and 9 pm on Wednesdays, therefore it's not canonical, therefore it's AU (alternate universe).

However most of the time what happens is that stories that really challenge the underlying premises of the show are labelled AU. Something like Tauvo Crais being brought onto Moya in the pilot of Farscape instead of Aeryn Sun; Benton Fraser being born a woman instead of a man (DueSouth); Scully never joining the FBI at all.

You can go even farther AU, of course, and write a story in which the recognizeable personalities are living in, say, 13th-Century Wales. (I'm not much fond of those, since part of the appeal of the fic is the characters' personal histories. But people do write them.) Those last ones, where the characters' personal histories are changed, are the ones that for me fall outside the realm of fanfiction, because without either the framework of the basic premise or the specific personal history established by canon what you have is an original novel whose characters physically resemble the actors but not much else is recognizable.

However to answer your question, even in those circumstances, the writer is generally relying on the reader's knowledge and familiarity with the source canon to make her point. The emotional responses and the logical connections often require the reader to know what was said or done in canon. The amount of this riffing or cross-referencing, of course, depends on the writer and the story.

(Similar to, say, a mainstream novel about a family squabbling about an inheritance in which one of three sisters is named Cordelia. That reference to King Lear casts a shadow and a certain level of understanding over the entire story, even if the characters themselves never acknowledge it.)

So, to get back to your question, when the story becomes alternate reality depends who you ask. Some stories are obviously alternate reality (Mulder is a girl!); some are AU because they start at a set point in canon and spin off into their own examination of what might have happened (Buffy never comes back from the dead after Prophecy Girl); some are completely wacky (like the Professionals stories in which the characters are, well, Faeries).

Other than that, the dividing line is very blurry. It depends on the specific community in question. There are even people who say that all slash is AU if there's no indication of same-sex preferences established in canon. Thankfully, this is not a commonly-held belief. *grin*

Sorry to go on so long, but it's an interesting question.

[zhaneel69.livejournal.com]

Akin to msagara, I don't mind long responses. Heck, I like 'em. So as long as she doesn't mind us rambling in her journal, I'm all for it. If she does, I'll move discussion to my journal.

Anyhow, thanks for the long answer. I don't know a lot about FanFic [obviously] so I enjoy learning.

Zhaneel

[rowyn]

Sometimes I think it is -- a critique in fictional form, showing what the reader thinks was missing or wrong, not unlike a traditional parody, except by adding or fixing what the writer thinks is missing instead of exaggerating what is there. Like the Wind Done Gone, which was ruled a parody, but is hardly Bored of the Rings.

Or Wide Sargasso Sea, a "prequel" to Jane Eyre written a century later (I disliked Wide Sargasso Sea, but that's me. Or Marion Zimmer Bradley's The Mists of Avalon. Or, y'know, the majority of Shakespeare's plays, though he usually filed the serial numbers off so maybe they don't count. :D

There's actually a subgenre of Literature with a capital L that is, essentially, fanfic of old works in the literary canon. Perhaps authors get away with this more easily than fanfic of contemporary works because they are considered a kind of "updating"; the author is taking a feminist or non-colonial or otherwise "modern" view of the text, and running with it. Sometimes in the opposite direction.

Like so many things, there's an awful lot of "grey area" in the realm of building off of someone else's ideas.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

*nodsnods* I never read Wide Sargosso Sea. I wasn't *that* fond of Jane Eyre that I wanted more of it.

[zhaneel69.livejournal.com]

Also, selling stories? Is work.

Grrrrr.... no kidding. *grousegrowl*

But, I'm almost sure here, it will be ALL worth it for that first sale.

Until I get rejected again... then it will be worth it for the next sale.

And so on and so forth.

I, personally, don't get as much satisfaction from my erotica which I just throw up on EroticStories.com [not work safe, duh!] as I do from the fiction that I'm honing for publication. I have yet to be published, but I know I've worked hard so success will be all the more sweet.

Or I just like pain and frustration. Take your pick.

Zhaneel

PS: Where is your SG-1 fic? I read a whole bunch a while ago and enjoyed it but had to stop.

[cofax7]

Well you know I've never sold any fiction, although I'm in print for nonfiction professional writing in a variety of places, mostly government reports. I don't know how I'd respond if I sold anything. Probably by bouncing around the house in glee and calling my family up to squee. *g*

The payment I get from readers in the form of email and comments can be really lovely, though, and I value it highly. It also leads to friendships, which are even more important.

You can find my fic here, and my SG-1 stuff on this page. Hope you like. And if you don't, that's cool too. ::smiles::

[msagara.livejournal.com]

Also, selling stories? Is work. It's much easier to slap them up on my LJ. *grin*

LOL! It's a bit of work <wry g>.

Anyway. Sorry to barge in on your conversation. ::sits back to watch some more::

I can't claim to own it, unless I"m talking to myself <g>. Input is good; this is a relatively new topic for me, and it's interesting to get the feedback.

[cofax7]

LOL! It's a bit of work .

I'm reminded of a friend of mine who makes great wine. And so he started a boutique winery. And... well, he loves to make wine. And talk wine. He doesn't like to deal with distributors, and marketing, and shmoozing with buyers and restauranteurs, and publicity people. He doesn't like the accounting hassles and the taxes and dealing with city, state, and federal bureaucracies.

He just wants to make wine.

That's me. I'm the writer who just wants to do the writing part. I get people reading my stuff and commenting on it, and I've improved over time. I'm pleased with most of my stuff and actually proud of some of it. And it's not the same as professional writing, but you know? I have a job. I don't really need another one.

Not to say that this might not change at some point.

I'm glad you're enjoying the conversation. I'm sure it must be weird to hear about someone doing your job, basically, for free.

I certainly can't imagine meeting anyone who -- well, no, strike that. There are people who would do some of what I do on a volunteer basis. Environmental activists, mostly. But not hobbyists.

Hmm.

A tangent to our earlier conversation

[jamie]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/coffeejunkii/168126.html?style=mine

This is someone who is giving a lecture on lj and online fandom (where fandom=online media fandom that includes fanfiction, vidding, etc.). It is a tangent to something we discussed about close knit community stuff. It doesn't actually directly link to any fanfic, per se, but more how fans use lj and how it affects their fannish experience.

I thought perhaps it would help, should you wish to dip a toe in, in understanding how 'fannish' people view lj and their fandom. Some of the dynamics, if you will.

If not, not. :)

[celledhor.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that there is a certain amount of freedom that comes from working wihtin your own world. You have total control, within reason, of what the rules are and where/how the characters grow.
*Minor Digression* It's a pet peeve of mine when an author sets the rules and then breaks them for whatever reason. The laws that govern the world/abilities/magic should be immutable. We can't randomly decide that for the next five minutes gravity doesn't exist because it is inconvenient (extreme example but you get the idea) * End Digression*

Your audience still has expectations for your work but you may not be aware of them because your world view and personality determined in part how & what you write. The expectations are generally based on any pre-existing work or events within the confines of the story. As a result, you (the author) get to stay within your own POV and still meet expectations. When writing for someone else's world the writer should attempt to write from a set of assumptions or perspective different from their own. This strikes me as being vastly more difficult.

Granted I have read very, very little fanfic and have never had any desire to do so but most authors I like write about an idea or underlying concept about society or humanity while fanfic seems to focus on the characters they (the writers) adore. For example: C.S. Friedman has the concept of faith versus religion underlying most of her work, Tad Williams deals with someone's desire to escape the tedium of their life only to find that what they thought was grand just has a different set of problems. You (Michelle) tend to write about the pain that is inherent in life but that pain cannot be allowed to control what one does.

In a similar vein, most authors' self created world is a reflection of themselves to a certian extent. The characters are amplifications of certain parts of their personality (I know, it sounds like schizophrenia). When a fanfic writer writes in someone else's world, they are lacking that rather essential tool for making everything mesh and flow.

I'll shut up now. This has gone far longer than I intended.

[zhaneel69.livejournal.com]

As you've pointed out: You don't do it for free.

You get "paid" in compliments, critique & friendship. And you've chosen not work the selling aspect.

If you did all the writing AND all the subbing that goes with "pro" writing for fun and no money, then I'd say you were insane.

But you don't go that far. You draw the line at fun. I don't considering subbing around fun, but the end goal [being published] is important enough to me to do that work. And I do eventually want to do this for a living.

It isn't strange to me that people "just" write for no money.

Zhaneel

Re: A tangent to our earlier conversation

[msagara.livejournal.com]

I thought perhaps it would help, should you wish to dip a toe in, in understanding how 'fannish' people view lj and their fandom. Some of the dynamics, if you will.

If not, not. :)

Thank you! I've just bookmarked it for reading because I am interested in the dynamics and in the crossover between LJ & fanfic & fandom in general; obviously, I started my LJ for slightly more mundane reasons <cough andpuff cough janni;>, so it's sort of like a curtain is slowly being pulled back.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

*Minor Digression* It's a pet peeve of mine when an author sets the rules and then breaks them for whatever reason. The laws that govern the world/abilities/magic should be immutable. We can't randomly decide that for the next five minutes gravity doesn't exist because it is inconvenient (extreme example but you get the idea) * End Digression*

Mine too. I think, though, there are often layers to a world; the things that are in the "now" of the universe, and seem immutable, and the things that are in the history of said universe, when things were very different.

Your audience still has expectations for your work but you may not be aware of them because your world view and personality determined in part how & what you write

I think that each person probably has expectations of the work, but are waiting to see what actually happens as things unfold, so in that sense, I don't feel any great pressure to change things, to alter the course of future history. I always think everything is obvious because -- as you say -- my writing is grounded in me.

The one complaints I get from people who have stopped reading are: 1. Nothing happens or 2. Too many @#$@%$! characters.

Unfortunately, the email I get from people who love them are 2. all the characters feel real and 3. don't make the books shorter 'cause you'll just cut all the character stuff.

So... I tend to listen to the inner muse. And at this point, cutting out almost all the viewpoints and focusing on just one would Tick Me Off, so I imagine it wouldn't really amuse anyone else whose read this far either.