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msagaraOkay, it's me again, and I'm still chewing over a couple of things. Not that I'm compulsive. Much.
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burger_eater said: As for talking about relationship problems, I know friends who have done it, but it has to be *very* serious to go there. We talk about problems, but if it's a problem with our spouse, it'd be a betrayal of our relationship.
The interesting thing about this, and the reason I'm mulling over it? It's true. I have my own gender biases, obviously, and I'm not aware of all of them -- but if a female friend complains to me about her spouse (any gender spouse), I will commiserate, or often come up with a similar tale of woe (dishes. leaving the gas barbecue turned on for 7 hours. not shopping with a list and, well.) If it's a more serious problem, I will listen, and I will give any advice they seek, if they seek it. I do not, however, in any of this, consider the discussion about the spouse to be a betrayal of their relationship.
However... (you knew there was a catch)...
If a male acquaintance is actively complaining about his wife in the same way, my reaction is different. I do not come up with similar complaints or incidents if the complaint is minor. And unless I know the complainee pretty darned well? I have difficulty listening to much of it. If I do know them well, they fall under the rubric (for me) of little brother, in which case, it's fine. Which implies that in some way, I do consider the male version of this to be said betrayal.
Which I realize is wrong. If the discussion is serious, it doesn't bother me as much, for some reason. And no, I'm not sure why I have this reaction, but I think in part its because I've observed whatburger_eater has mentioned in action, and I've internalized it. Or possibly I'm not as comfortable with the discussion crossing the gender divide. I have to think about this a bit more. (I'm still thinking about it now).
But I have issues with a certain type of condescending humour in a relationship anyway. There's the usual teasing (which I undergo all the time because I may have slight difficulties reading things like maps or noticing minor details like one-way streets), and there's always some affection in that, and that's all good. There is the usual frustration, and the complaints that come from that. But the type of 'humour' to which 'you can't take a joke' is the only response when any attempt at discussion is offered? I hate that. Loathe it. I think it is, if not curbed, relationship doom in the making.
Umm, yes, that was a digression. Sorry.
That's what annoyed me about Gottlieb, honestly. She treated her friends, who just needed to vent about the usual everyday annoyances that come from living with someone for years, as if they'd "settled." Has she never had a relationship? Even the best of them, between Mr. and Ms. Right For Each Other, have stresses and points of conflict. Sometimes people need to vent safely to their friends.
I think the venting is important in context. I think she's bitter about any complaint at the moment because she is without a spousal support system (at her own choice), and in her defense -- not that she needs it -- it's a bit like complaining about your toddler to people who have been trying for seven years to conceive, and have gone through every invasive procedure and every hormonal treatment they legally can, without any luck. Yes, they're your friends. Yes, they should be there while you let off needed steam. But... as their friend, there are things that you shouldn't ask of them.
I admit that I don't vent about my husband to my friends that my husband hasn't heard first, but that's me (and there's every chance that he might prefer the venting to friends, sans the small blasts at which he is ground zero).
ETA: Writing post soonish, sorry for wibbling...
burger_eater said: As for talking about relationship problems, I know friends who have done it, but it has to be *very* serious to go there. We talk about problems, but if it's a problem with our spouse, it'd be a betrayal of our relationship.The interesting thing about this, and the reason I'm mulling over it? It's true. I have my own gender biases, obviously, and I'm not aware of all of them -- but if a female friend complains to me about her spouse (any gender spouse), I will commiserate, or often come up with a similar tale of woe (dishes. leaving the gas barbecue turned on for 7 hours. not shopping with a list and, well.) If it's a more serious problem, I will listen, and I will give any advice they seek, if they seek it. I do not, however, in any of this, consider the discussion about the spouse to be a betrayal of their relationship.
However... (you knew there was a catch)...
If a male acquaintance is actively complaining about his wife in the same way, my reaction is different. I do not come up with similar complaints or incidents if the complaint is minor. And unless I know the complainee pretty darned well? I have difficulty listening to much of it. If I do know them well, they fall under the rubric (for me) of little brother, in which case, it's fine. Which implies that in some way, I do consider the male version of this to be said betrayal.
Which I realize is wrong. If the discussion is serious, it doesn't bother me as much, for some reason. And no, I'm not sure why I have this reaction, but I think in part its because I've observed what
burger_eater has mentioned in action, and I've internalized it. Or possibly I'm not as comfortable with the discussion crossing the gender divide. I have to think about this a bit more. (I'm still thinking about it now).But I have issues with a certain type of condescending humour in a relationship anyway. There's the usual teasing (which I undergo all the time because I may have slight difficulties reading things like maps or noticing minor details like one-way streets), and there's always some affection in that, and that's all good. There is the usual frustration, and the complaints that come from that. But the type of 'humour' to which 'you can't take a joke' is the only response when any attempt at discussion is offered? I hate that. Loathe it. I think it is, if not curbed, relationship doom in the making.
Umm, yes, that was a digression. Sorry.
That's what annoyed me about Gottlieb, honestly. She treated her friends, who just needed to vent about the usual everyday annoyances that come from living with someone for years, as if they'd "settled." Has she never had a relationship? Even the best of them, between Mr. and Ms. Right For Each Other, have stresses and points of conflict. Sometimes people need to vent safely to their friends.
I think the venting is important in context. I think she's bitter about any complaint at the moment because she is without a spousal support system (at her own choice), and in her defense -- not that she needs it -- it's a bit like complaining about your toddler to people who have been trying for seven years to conceive, and have gone through every invasive procedure and every hormonal treatment they legally can, without any luck. Yes, they're your friends. Yes, they should be there while you let off needed steam. But... as their friend, there are things that you shouldn't ask of them.
I admit that I don't vent about my husband to my friends that my husband hasn't heard first, but that's me (and there's every chance that he might prefer the venting to friends, sans the small blasts at which he is ground zero).
ETA: Writing post soonish, sorry for wibbling...
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no subject
Date: 2008-03-19 05:09 pm (UTC)How right you are, and I'm usually more sensitive to that sort of thing. I think I blanked out while reading that part of the article (or had a failure of empathy, which also happens more than I'd like).
Which implies that in some way, I do consider the male version of this to be said betrayal.
If I were to guess at the cause of this (and by "guess" I mean "extrapolate from my own feelings onto the whole of the human race/western culture"--which I'm pretty sure is why the internet was invented) I'd blame it on the feeling of power imbalance in the relationship. A husband's willingness to say nasty things about his wife tickles the "this guy is cruel to his wife" nerve. What husband wants to be that dude?
Along with that is the idea that the husband is supposed to protect his wife. Not just by, you know, not publicly attacking her, but by not spreading information that give other people cause to gossip.
Going the other way, when a wife gripes about her husband, it's not as terrible because her words are not as threatening. Power imbalance.
Probably I'm just full of crap, though.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-19 07:28 pm (UTC)I almost hate to say that I think this is spot on, because I in theory don't think there is a power imbalance in relationships -- but obviously, on some level, I'm reacting to a perceived imbalance in pretty much just the way you've extrapolated.
Along with that is the idea that the husband is supposed to protect his wife. Not just by, you know, not publicly attacking her, but by not spreading information that give other people cause to gossip.
And this too. All of which has given me things to think about, or to work at.
I was thinking that in some ways, wives venting about husbands is a by-product of the way in which we're pressured to pay attention to small details. Growing up, it was -- in the large extended family -- the women who were responsible for all the fiddly little things that made the household run, and they would get so very frustrated because their husbands simply did not pay attention, or care, about those details. So venting let off steam about the little things.
I definitely see the words or the venting as less threatening when women do it, but I didn't see it as part of that power imbalance. So... something to think about, because if my reaction is "this guy is cruel to his wife" on the one hand, it probably does mean the other hand exists in my subconscious worldview.
Probably I'm just full of crap, though.
Well, if you are, it's thoughtful crap, and I find it helpful.
no subject
Date: 2008-03-20 05:10 am (UTC)Whenever there is a conflict between two people, the physical stuff is always there. Even if both sides despise it and would never turn to violence, even if it goes against everything they believe, the difference in physical strength is always there. (And usually in the guy's favor.)
I know. This sort of conversation can venture into pretty unpleasant subjects. It was on my mind a lot when I first started dating Salad Eater--something about her body language made me think I needed to prove that our relationship was a safe place for conflict.
Growing up, it was -- in the large extended family -- the women who were responsible for all the fiddly little things that made the household run, and they would get so very frustrated because their husbands simply did not pay attention, or care, about those details.
This is pretty interesting and not something I've thought much about. Thanks. And thanks for inspiring the new subtitle for my LJ. :)