So... a little bit more mulling about relationship things

[msagara]

Okay, it's me again, and I'm still chewing over a couple of things. Not that I'm compulsive. Much.

burger_eater said: As for talking about relationship problems, I know friends who have done it, but it has to be *very* serious to go there. We talk about problems, but if it's a problem with our spouse, it'd be a betrayal of our relationship.

The interesting thing about this, and the reason I'm mulling over it? It's true. I have my own gender biases, obviously, and I'm not aware of all of them -- but if a female friend complains to me about her spouse (any gender spouse), I will commiserate, or often come up with a similar tale of woe (dishes. leaving the gas barbecue turned on for 7 hours. not shopping with a list and, well.) If it's a more serious problem, I will listen, and I will give any advice they seek, if they seek it. I do not, however, in any of this, consider the discussion about the spouse to be a betrayal of their relationship.

However... (you knew there was a catch)...

If a male acquaintance is actively complaining about his wife in the same way, my reaction is different. I do not come up with similar complaints or incidents if the complaint is minor. And unless I know the complainee pretty darned well? I have difficulty listening to much of it. If I do know them well, they fall under the rubric (for me) of little brother, in which case, it's fine. Which implies that in some way, I do consider the male version of this to be said betrayal.

Which I realize is wrong. If the discussion is serious, it doesn't bother me as much, for some reason. And no, I'm not sure why I have this reaction, but I think in part its because I've observed what burger_eater has mentioned in action, and I've internalized it. Or possibly I'm not as comfortable with the discussion crossing the gender divide. I have to think about this a bit more. (I'm still thinking about it now).

But I have issues with a certain type of condescending humour in a relationship anyway. There's the usual teasing (which I undergo all the time because I may have slight difficulties reading things like maps or noticing minor details like one-way streets), and there's always some affection in that, and that's all good. There is the usual frustration, and the complaints that come from that. But the type of 'humour' to which 'you can't take a joke' is the only response when any attempt at discussion is offered? I hate that. Loathe it. I think it is, if not curbed, relationship doom in the making.

Umm, yes, that was a digression. Sorry.

That's what annoyed me about Gottlieb, honestly. She treated her friends, who just needed to vent about the usual everyday annoyances that come from living with someone for years, as if they'd "settled." Has she never had a relationship? Even the best of them, between Mr. and Ms. Right For Each Other, have stresses and points of conflict. Sometimes people need to vent safely to their friends.

I think the venting is important in context. I think she's bitter about any complaint at the moment because she is without a spousal support system (at her own choice), and in her defense -- not that she needs it -- it's a bit like complaining about your toddler to people who have been trying for seven years to conceive, and have gone through every invasive procedure and every hormonal treatment they legally can, without any luck. Yes, they're your friends. Yes, they should be there while you let off needed steam. But... as their friend, there are things that you shouldn't ask of them.

I admit that I don't vent about my husband to my friends that my husband hasn't heard first, but that's me (and there's every chance that he might prefer the venting to friends, sans the small blasts at which he is ground zero).


ETA: Writing post soonish, sorry for wibbling...

Comments

[phantom_wolfboy]

What if it was a gay male friend, complaining about his husband? Or, for that matter, a female same-sex couple? Would that change anything?

[rosefox]

This is totally foreign to me, but that may be because I grew up hanging out with queers and polyfolk. Hell, I met my now-husband on alt.polyamory, a forum basically dedicated to discussing relationship problems and how to fix them. You mean there are people who don't talk to their friends about their relationships? That's like parents who won't argue in front of their children!

I should note, though, that the important context for me is two big assumptions:

1) The purpose of one of my partners talking to a friend about our relationship issues is to ask the friend's help or advice (even if the only help needed is "let me whine about this so that the next time I see [partner] I will be capable of discussing this reasonably") or to support the friend in dealing with similar issues.

2) I will hear about any big complaints that my partner has about me or our relationship, and they will be brought up in a responsible and reasonable way.

A partner having a big problem with me and not telling me? Not cool. A partner bad-mouthing me to others without presenting it as something they need to come to terms with or we need to work together on fixing? Not cool. Fortunately, in my little subculture that sort of asinine, dishonest behavior is very far from the norm, and in my relationships it would be completely unthinkable. Is it more common in the more mainstream world?

EDIT: Actually, there's a third big assumption, which is that my partner is at least as eager to talk about the good stuff as the bad stuff. A partner telling friends when I fuck up and never telling them when I get things right would make me very unhappy, and yes, would feel like a betrayal. Again, though, that's unthinkable, especially as one of the things I look for in a partner is an attitude of celebrating even the smallest everyday joys in life.

[kateelliott.livejournal.com]

I tend to think that venting can serve as a safety valve if there are small annoyances that of themselves aren't serious, or that likely won't be changed--it's just nice to blow off steam sometimes IF the person you're blowing off steam to understands that that is what you're doing and doesn't make it other than what it is.

[rowyn]

I really don't like complaining about an SO to a third party, and definitely not complaints that haven't been aired to the SO first.

The last part almost goes for all friendly relationships. If you have a problem with someone, you ought to talk to that person about it first, as a very broad generalization.

[aveareya.livejournal.com]

I think that friendly venting about trifles is a fine thing, but I've found that with either sex if they are willing to really complain - in a way that others might lose respect for their SO - the relationship is probably over. Not if they are 'really complaining' to a close friend. That means there are issues and the friend may help, but to the general populace? I've not been around guys so much that go out side the venting of trifles (always gets lost, forgets what she's saying :)). The ones that go outside of that, I generally already see as jerks. Hmm - I have a cold and may be babbling.

[burger-eater.livejournal.com]

But... as their friend, there are things that you shouldn't ask of them.

How right you are, and I'm usually more sensitive to that sort of thing. I think I blanked out while reading that part of the article (or had a failure of empathy, which also happens more than I'd like).

Which implies that in some way, I do consider the male version of this to be said betrayal.

If I were to guess at the cause of this (and by "guess" I mean "extrapolate from my own feelings onto the whole of the human race/western culture"--which I'm pretty sure is why the internet was invented) I'd blame it on the feeling of power imbalance in the relationship. A husband's willingness to say nasty things about his wife tickles the "this guy is cruel to his wife" nerve. What husband wants to be that dude?

Along with that is the idea that the husband is supposed to protect his wife. Not just by, you know, not publicly attacking her, but by not spreading information that give other people cause to gossip.

Going the other way, when a wife gripes about her husband, it's not as terrible because her words are not as threatening. Power imbalance.

Probably I'm just full of crap, though.

[book-wench.livejournal.com]

For me, it depends entirely on my relationship with the person who is venting, and in this context I note that you refer to a female "friend" but a male "acquaintance." Not being paired up with anyone myself, I have a couple of close male friends and their venting doesn't bother me any more than does that of my female friends. However, if you're only an acquaintance, then IMO I'm not the person you should be venting to about the fact that your husband leaves the top off the toothpaste tube. Well, unless you're telling it as a humorous anecdote, in that fond way that couples have when describing each other's quirks.

So I guess I don't feel a man is bad-mouthing his wife if he vents a little, so long as he and I are close enough. I have no idea whether being single affects this attitude at all, although I'm certainly wondering about that now.