A question about male gaze

[msagara]

Last night, when I was falling asleep at my keyboard and did not want to sleep, I went off to the internet to read about books. (Not my books, though, because that frequently wakes me up in the Bad Way, because - author.)

One of the books was a novel called Stormdancer. It is the first in a series that is set in not-Japan but which makes use of elements of Japanese society in a kind of “this is cool, let’s use this” way. This is a book, according to quotes in reviews, which is firmly anchored in the male gaze.

The protagonist is a woman.

I’ve been thinking about books, written by men, in which women are handled well. Or, to be more specific, in which I think women are handled well. It’s a question I used to be asked while working at the bookstore, and therefore a question I’ve turned over on the inside of my head, time and again.

And this morning, because I am writing and my creative writer brain has slowed, I have returned to this, having spent an evening reading about male gaze.

All of the male authors I’ve recommended or cleared as “writing women well” (Sean Stewart for example) are entirely absent male gaze.

(I once asked Sean Stewart how he handled his women, because he was one of the few male authors whose viewpoint felt so natural to me I would have believed he was a woman if I hadn’t met him, and he said “It’s not magic; I just write about them as if they’re…people.” One of the ways he achieved this, I realize in hindsight, is jettisoning male gaze.)

Male gaze irritates the crap out of me. Most of the women I know who notice their bodies are likely to say “I need to lose weight around my thighs” or “my stomach is so flabby”, so if you really want to write from a female viewpoint, you don’t have your character notice her fabulous perky breasts or creamy skin or etc. Because. Well.

But…

Is there a female gaze that has the same weight, and is irritating or reductionist in the same way? Do male readers feel reduced to uncomfortable margins by female gaze?

I realize that this is a touchy question. I am actually interested in the answer and will accept any answer that is given that does not constitute a personal attack on any other answer that’s given - but I want people to answer without fear of censure.

Comments

[msagara.livejournal.com]

He wrote Clouds End, which is possibly the definitive feminine coming-of-age story for me. You could have told me he was a woman and I would have absolutely believed it.

Re: male writers 'handling women well'

[kateelliott.livejournal.com]

Yes, I have always been "comfortable" reading de Lint's pov women.

[kateelliott.livejournal.com]

I think the male gaze is much bigger than objectification. But I haven't yet written the second half of my essay to which the omniscient breasts one was the first hafl.

I have to think about this further

[alwaysoptimistc.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately real life beckons and I'll have to give greater consideration to your points later. No disrespect in any way at all intended.

But the initial question that crosses my mind is whether it's possible that those male-centric things are indoctrinating males into a belief system that is supposed to appeal to females? In the same way that something like Barbie has been said to indoctrinate girls into a way of thinking that is meant to appeal to stereotypical straight males? Or entertainments from the 1950's might have taught females to dress (or sew or cook) in ways to appeal to males? And actually, don't certain magazines these days still suggest ways in which females might appeal to what "He" wants? Absent such indoctrination (if that's indeed what it is), is it possible that males would prioritize differently? Or at least better be able to throw off the evolutionary tendencies that I hypothesized about earlier? If females were to clearly communicate that they no longer gave any consideration to elements such as power, wealth, status, etc. then I think that would go a long way to changing many of those male-centric things. At the same time, such a clear declaration might make many males better able to understand how many female's don't accept the gaze, as well as other things, that once were considered norms.

Btw, my initial posts got a bit lengthier than I had intended and that was without even really bringing the comments around to fiction. So I had the choice of either getting much longer or not being nearly as on-topic as I would have liked, obviously I went with the latter, but I am sorry for the quasi off-topicness of what I wrote.

[kateelliott.livejournal.com]

Although that element of the male gaze is central (the sexual gaze) I would define it more broadly as valuing/privileging "male defined" (culturally defined) viewpoints, expressions, interests, etc as being intrinsically more important/of interest to the entire community while other viewpoints/expressions are marginalized. But not everyone will agree at such an expansive definition.

[iamshadow.livejournal.com]

I own a copy of Cloud's End, but I haven't read it yet. I've read Mockingbird, Firecracker and Galveston. I own Nobody's Son (which my partner has read but I haven't yet) and The Night Watch, which I haven't read because I need to read Resurrection Man first and that means finding a copy.

I'm a bibliophile, my to-read pile is more a to-read shelf, I've got a few hundred books waiting in the wings for me to read them.

Re: continued

[barbarienne.livejournal.com]

Women over 30 don't ask what a man does for a living because they're thinking Can he provide for me? The older a woman is, the less likely that is her question, because unless she's living at home being supported by her parents, she has probably already figured out how to provide for herself.

I earn a good living, more than the national average. But I want to know if prospective beaus are employed, and how steadily, for the following reasons:

1. Does his job tell me something about who he is? A teacher, a plumber, a gardener, an emergency-room nurse-- A job does not define a person, but it's a reasonable starting point for follow-up questions.

2. If he's not dependably employed, why is that? Is he a writer who supports himself by bartending while trying to sell a novel? If so, does he pursue his art for real, or does he just fart around endlessly rewriting the first three chapters, and spend the rest of his time on the sofa in his underwear watching TV?

A mature woman knows what she hopes her life will be, and she doesn't have a lot of time to do the "we pursue our careers together" thing. A man who can support himself won't be a drag on the life she has spent the past decade-plus building for herself.

Re: I think that there are at least three female gazes

[barbarienne.livejournal.com]

Men pursue power and wealth and its trappings not to impress women, but to impress other men. It's not about getting sex; it's about getting admiration and status.

If men really were interested in getting sex, they would read romance novels, or at least Cosmo, and try to learn lessons from them. Either men really suck at research, or "sex" is actually below "status" on the list of things they want.

Status can lead to sex, but guys who wear the power suits aren't doing all that just to get something they could easily pay for. Sex is easy to get. Status, not so much.

[burger-eater.livejournal.com]

There's a disconnect I'm noticing in the discussion here that's interesting, assuming I'm seeing it correctly. "Male gaze" often involves 1) men writing women but 2) having the women describe themselves as the men would see them (boobs, butt, and hair, basically).

But the "Female gaze" keeps getting described as 1) women writing women who 2) judge the sexiness of male characters.

I would think a closer analogy would be a woman having a male POV character think about his "lion-like tresses and strong hands," or some such nonsense.

I've certainly read my share of unconvincing guys-written-by-women, but I'm not smart enough (apparently) to spot a pattern or trend to it.

[barbarienne.livejournal.com]

I'm not so sure that's the "male gaze" so much as the "patriarchal mindset."

To my mind, the male gaze starts with "She wore a dark blue dress that hugged every curve." Whereas the patriarchal mindset is "Bill didn't care what she bought--shopping bored him--as long as she was dressed in the latest styles that suited the wife of a stockbroker."

The first example is about whether she's sexually appealing. The second example is about whether she is fitting into a particular gender-defined role, and minimizing a "female" activity (shopping) while emphasizing the importance of what her owner husband requires.

Though of course it's semantics, and I have no problem considering the second sentence as an extension of the male gaze. I just offer this contrast to show two different aspects of the problem.

Re: I think that there are at least three female gazes

[mtlawson.livejournal.com]

Men pursue power and wealth and its trappings not to impress women, but to impress other men. It's not about getting sex; it's about getting admiration and status.

I don't believe things are ever that simple. Perhaps for some people they are, but I know enough people who do what they do merely because they like completing things in as elegant a fashion as possible that I don't believe that this can be that generic.

Then again, I work in IT and have a degree in the sciences, so that might skew things a bit.

[kateelliott.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree. I believe that the technical definition of male gaze (which can be found online) is narrow, a syou say.

I like the larger definition in terms of how I try to consider how text and story works and how people react to the stories we tell in whatever media. That is, in the sense of people saying "that's not right" or "that's not how things are" when it doesn't fit the default mode. If that makes sense.

[barbarienne.livejournal.com]

Women can have the "male gaze" too. Patriarchy, you're soaking in it.

The distinction is the sexualization. When men write testosterone-fueled adventure novels in which they talk about the hero's mighty thews, they're not commenting on how sexy the guy is (unless they are. But that's not the usual approach). They're creating a fantasy for themselves (or their readers) to vicariously embody.

Women can write women this way--the description of the character makes her someone for the female reader to vicariously embody. Or she can simply be eye candy, written the way John Norman might write her. Women are not exempt from absorbing bad tropes, even ones that are harmful to them.

The idea of "sexy women" in advertising can go two ways:

1. "The woman that other women want to be, and men want to be with."

2. "The woman men imagine will fuck them."

The former is sexy and desirable, but also high quality. A man envisions having this beautiful creature around all the time, but also on some level imagines that she might be entertaining when not actively having sex. Most men are not actually simple creatures ruled by their penises, and advertisers targeting a more enlightened demographic try to hit multiple buttons.

Whereas the latter is a woman for a man to fuck and discard. They appear in lowbrow advertising, often in bad beer commercials. They're targeting the demographic of men who have been trained to think of women as a class (with individual exceptions) as sandwich-making orifice systems.

Re: I have to think about this further

[lyssabits.livejournal.com]

I think the question of what job a man has also speaks to what kind of life you might have with that man, and therefore is pretty important to consider.

Is he a firefighter? Will I have to spend my days and nights worried that he'll never come back from the next call? Is he a lawyer or a doctor? Will I have to spend more time on my own because he's always working? Etc.. Women want different things from their partners. Some, yes, want a guy with high income because they want a certain lifestyle. Some want a guy with high status because they think it will gain them access to some desirable stratas of society. Some women won't want a guy who makes a lot of money or is high status because those things tend to come with time commitments that mean you never see each other.

I would want someone to be interested in my career as well. Frankly, any man who ISN'T interested in what I do for a living is communicating to me that he doesn't consider my career important, and that would bother me.

Re: I have to think about this further

[barbarienne.livejournal.com]

Also, protip:

Please don't refer to human beings as "males" and "females." The correct terms when speaking about adults are "men" and "women"; or when speaking about children, "boys" and "girls."

I realize it seems illogical, but the use of "males" and "females" is a huge marker of people who subscribe to the worst sort of long-disproven pop-evolutionary-psychology bullshit. If you're not one of those people, it would be good for you to use the more humanizing terms.

Re: I think that there are at least three female gazes

[barbarienne.livejournal.com]

You are of course correct: people do things for a lot of different reasons. My point was, men who are all "Look at my big house! Look at my expensive suit! Look at my fancy car!" are just as likely doing it to show off for other men, not for women.

Unless, you know, they like the sort of women who are attracted by fancy duds or a car or whatever. Which seems stupid to me, but different people have different goals and needs.

[msagara.livejournal.com]

I would think a closer analogy would be a woman having a male POV character think about his "lion-like tresses and strong hands," or some such nonsense.

I feel that you are now pulling far, far ahead in the Win The Internet race.

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

Actually, I was thrown out of it for the very same reason.

[sartorias.livejournal.com]

This is what signaled to me that S. E. Hinton was a woman, though the POV was a teenage boy, when I read it as a teenager. I had never heard my brother or any guys I know comment about one another's long eyelashes, beautiful eyes, beautiful hair. They were looking at each other the way girls looked at boys, though supposedly het boys. (It was the first book that got me thinking, however hazily, about voice.)

[lwe.livejournal.com]

I'm glad to know I'm not the only one.

Male gaze/female gaze

[(Anonymous)]

I've been mulling over your post off and on since I read it hours ago which isn't surprising since I do the same mulling over your books. I think an objectifying female gaze, just as dehumanizing and just as prevalent, as the male gaze. Soft porn romance novels are built around the Janus face of the male gaze. Unless boys are raised by mothers who value them first as people, secondly as boys, they are culturally conditioned to believe they should like, even want, to be seen as sex objects. (I did not mean to leave fathers out. I was thinking about raising my son as a single parent and the comments he's made and the situations we faced over the years.) Feminism raised women's consciousness about the dehumanizing consequences of the male gaze. I thought then, and I think now, we didn't do nearly enough to try to liberate boys and men. We are humans first, women and men second. What harms men, harms women. What harms women, harms men. Praise be what benefits one, benefits the other as well. I have a very strong hunch a male writer who creates believable female characters has been treated like a worthwhile human being by important women in his family. And the important men. And I doubt a female writer who was valued in the same way reduces male charaters to beefcake. I know I'm generalizing. It would take a novella not to.

[lwe.livejournal.com]

Speaking as a heterosexual white man, I would say, "Not always." It's disconcerting in many, probably most, cases, but there are also times it's flattering or amusing. It all depends on context.

As for emasculating, no. It isn't, not for me. Threatening, maybe sometimes, just because it is so unfamiliar, but I'm over six feet, over two hundred pounds -- I don't find either a lone woman or a single homosexual male to constitute a real threat of sexual violence. I'm well aware this is a luxury 90% or more of women don't have.

[lwe.livejournal.com]

What's a little less forgivable is Dag's taking note of Fawn's breasts while he's in the middle of stopping a rape attempt. I'm not sure what LMB was thinking when she wrote that.

I haven't read the book in question, but I've known guys who notice a woman's breasts in any circumstances whatsoever, no matter how inappropriate, and I suspect Lois has, too. The trick is to not show that one's noticing.

Arggghh

[(Anonymous)]

The post got stuck. It would not let me edit. Does anyone else encounter this problem? Or am I destined to encounter tech weirdness out in the the tech challenged wilderness by my lonesome? My friend's husband, not a fanciful man, says I have reverse polarity, so live with it. I really don't like sending out unedited...well, anything. And I know what I once would have said to my students. "Oh, sure you couldn't edit your writing. The computer wouldn't let you. To say nothing of the dog". Now I would shake my head in commiseration.At least the foul up put an end to the urge I had to produce that novella.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

Dude. I am speaking of white heterosexual men as a class, not as individuals. You can be a special snowflake if you like, but it's not relevant here.